Question: Regarding German Officers

[ostprussenmann_new]

If a German officer was from another state or Grand Duchy, typically how would an officer be awarded his awards?

1) Example: EKII, EKI, then State Award like a Bavarian Military Merit Medal

or

2) Example: EKII, State Award of the second class or first class depending on rank, then EK1.

I was just wondering, but I am thinking Example 2. If anyone has any insite please let me know.

v/r

ostprussenmann

[Paul C]

I am not sure if there was specific order. Below is the award page for GL August Schmidt.

[Paul C]

bottom

[Dave Danner]

There was no specific order. Typically, one might be put in for the EK2, and the home state would respond by awarding its analogous basic award too. But because the award procedures were different, the state award might be awarded first.

In other cases, the officer might be put in for the state award first, and the EK2 recommendation might come later. In some cases, not at all - you sometimes see medal bars with a state award and no EK2 (less likely for officers, but common soldiers in a state regiment might get only the state award).

In yet other cases, an officer might get the EK2 and the state wouldn't respond. If he got his state's basic award, it might come later for an unrelated act of bravery or military merit.

As for the EK1, assuming the officer got one at all, it might come before or after any state award. It could also come for a separate act or acts of valor, or might come for the same deed(s) as a state award.

Paul gave you a Bavarian example. Here is an Oldenburger:

Carl Becker

OFAK2: 14.7.15

EK2: 23.7.15

OFAK1: 13.8.16

EK1: 17.6.17

HOH3X: 8.7.18

OV3bX: 23.8.18

And a Mecklenburg-Strelitzer:

Kurt Kruse

EK2: 22.10.14

MStK2: 30.6.15

EK1: 16.2.17

MStK1: 2.8.17

HOH3X: 2.10.18

And a few Saxons:

Werner Freiherr von Beschwitz

EK2: 16.10.14

SA3aX: 20.6.15

SH3: 3.8.16

SA3aXKr: 11.11.17

EK1: 24.12.17

Albert von Funcke

EK2: 20.9.14

SA3aX: 10.12.14

EK1: 29.2.16

SA3aXKr: 25.5.16

SH3: 25.5.17

SV3aX: 12.11.17

SH2b: 9.9.18

Max Beyer:

EK2: 27.1.15

EK1: 21.8.15

SV3aX: 2.10.15

Max Baumgärtel

EK2: 30.12.14

SV3aX: 25.5.15

EK1: 19.7.15

SH3: 16.10.15

SA3X: 28.8.16

HOH3X: 29.11.16

Hans von Schönfels

EK2: 24.10.14

EK1: 5.11.14

SA3aXKr: 10.12.14

SH3: 28.2.15

SV3aX: 4.8.16

SA3X: 8.12.16

SH2b: 15.11.17

KO2X: 29.10.18

Eugen Naumann

EK2: 20.11.14

SA3aX: 20.2.15

EK1: 1.5.15

SH3: 21.7.15

SV3aX: 29.8.16

SA3X: 3.7.17

SH2b: 1.9.18

Hans von Mangoldt-Gaudlitz

EK2: 16.9.14

SH3: 7.11.14

EK1: 12.1.15

SV3aX: 5.6.16

HOH3X: 1.10.16

SA3X: 21.2.18

KO2X: 31.10.18

Ernst Freiherr von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen

EK2: 8.9.14

SH3: 24.11.14

EK1: 5.12.14

SA3aX: 6.11.15

SV3aX: 25.5.16

Georg Freiherr von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen

EK2: 9.1.15

SV3aX: 19.3.15

EK1: 13.8.15

SH3: 11.11.17

SH2b: 17.4.18

PlM: 8.9.18

[Dave Danner]

By the way, Paul's example is interesting. Even though Schmidt was a Bavarian officer, both his Bavarian awards came well after his Prussian ones. Even the two Mecklenburg-Schwerin awards, which he got because the Grand Duke was Inhaber of the Bavarian 21st Infantry Regiment, came before Bavarian awards.

[ostprussenmann_new]

By the way, Paul's example is interesting. Even though Schmidt was a Bavarian officer, both his Bavarian awards came well after his Prussian ones. Even the two Mecklenburg-Schwerin awards, which he got because the Grand Duke was Inhaber of the Bavarian 21st Infantry Regiment, came before Bavarian awards.

Dave,

Sorry I just saw your responses, which are very interesting. It is even more interesting that some officers could "double dip" the awards for the same act of bravery. Thank you very much. Have any Baden examples?

Jason

[Dave Danner]

Dave,

Sorry I just saw your responses, which are very interesting. It is even more interesting that some officers could "double dip" the awards for the same act of bravery. Thank you very much. Have any Baden examples?

Jason

Hi,

Not really any good ones for Baden. The various grades of the Order of the Zähringen Lion were Baden's basic award for officers, but it was generally a one-time deal. A Baden officer might typically get his Zähringen Lion at roughly the same time as his Iron Cross 2nd Class and then that was it. If there were cases of an officer getting a lower grade of the Zähringen Lion early in the war and a higher grade later on, they were exceptional and I don't know of any. Baden's other main military award was the Militärischer Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden, but this was extremely rare, like the Pour le Mérite, with only 288 awards of the Knight's Cross of the MKFVO.

Also, since awards of the EK to Badeners weren't separately published, I don't know the award dates for most. One I do know is the later General der Flieger Karl Friedrich Schweickhard. His EK2 came on 15.9.1914 and was followed shortly by the Knight 2nd Class with Swords of the Zähringen Lion on 3.10.1914. His EK1 came on 6.10.1915. He then received Baden's MKFVO on 14.6.1916. Another Prussian award, the Knight's Cross with Swords of the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern, came on 18.10.1917. He also got a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class, but I've been generally leaving off awards other than the Prussian and home state, since that's what your question related to.

Another aviator example, though, shows how complex this all is. Albert Dossenbach was a native of Baden, but when the war began the then-medical student enlisted and ended up in Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 90, a Mecklenburg-Schwerin regiment. He got the EK2 on 20.9.1914 and the EK1 very soon thereafetr, on 23.11.1914. Mecklenburg-Schwerin awarded him the Military Merit Cross 2nd Class on 15.9.1914, basically at the same time as his EK2, so apparently Baden felt no need to decorate him as well. All of these came as an enlisted soldier. He was commissioned a Lt.d.R. on 27.1.1915. Baden then got around to decorating him on 1.6.1915 with the Knight 2nd Class with Swords of the Order of the Zähringen Lion. He was still in a Mecklenburg regiment, and got the Military Merit Cross 1st Class on 29.9.1915. He then transferred to aviation in November 1915 and a year or so later, in rapid succession, got the Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern (28.10.1916), Prussian Pour le Mérite (11.11.1916), and Baden MKFVO (9.12.1916). He was shot down and killed on 3.7.1917.

The only other example I have at hand is similar to Dossenbach and thanks to the research of Christoph Deruelle. Ernst Hischmann, a native Badener, did his initial military service in Baden's IR 114, but on mobilization in 1914, the Landwehr lieutenant was activated with Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 40, the regiment of the Hohenzollern principalities (but closely connected to Baden because of where it recruited). His first decoration thus came from the prince of Hohenzollern, the Honor Cross 3rd Class with Swords of the Princely House Order of Hohenzollern, on 1.10.1914. I can't find his EK2 date (maybe Christoph can recall), but his EK1 came on 9.11.1916, shortly after his Baden Zähringen Lion Knight 2nd Class with Swords on 19.6.1916. The Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern came on 31.10.1917, at about the same time as the Baden MKFVO on 3.10.1917. He was killed in action 18.7.1918.

But these Karl-Friedrich knights were pretty exceptional. Most Baden officers would have gotten an EK2 and the appropriate grade of the Zähringen Lion, and then maybe later the EK1, and that's it.

Regards,

Dave

[ostprussenmann_new]

Dave

Thanks for the very useful information. I am putting your information that you just shared in my "kit bag" for future reference.

Jason