Mervyn Mitton Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Whilst we have Stuart in an answering mood - here is a question for all of our headdress collectors. Who was this man - what was his rank with this bi-corne hat - can we identify his Regt. from the dress button ? We have some clues - there is a photo of his name plate from the jappaned tin carrier - however, the hat may have been for a later and higher rank ? I must have had this for many years as I had forgotten about-it. Photos have just been sent from my collection in the UK - I would say Army - rather than Police. However, in the early days many retired military officers were appointed as senior police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Plate from the tin box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) Well I can't locate the pattern on the trimming of the hat but the plume would appear to be white over red feathers and 6" long. This length indicates an officer under the rank of Colonel. Field Marshalls, Generals had a 10" plume whilst Colonels had 8". It would seem that cocked hats were worn by General Staff or Regimental/Corps staff officers. Can we get a better i.e. closeup of the button as it does not appear to be the bullion purl button used on the higher ranks cocked hats. I have two: one to the Royal Engineers and the other to the Welsh Guards and each button contains a device which indicates their corps or regiment. The name on the plate is a little difficult to read but is it Major Campbell? Now that doesn't make it easy Stuart Edited May 9, 2011 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Mervyn, in the tassels how many are gold bullion and how many, if any, of another colour, say crimson or blue? Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 Don't know if this will help - I think I can see traces of red amongst the bullion ? Is that a winged dragon on the left of the button ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Hi Mervyn, I also thought it was a dragon on the button but not only was it too indistinct for me to posit that. If it is then the 14th Hussars, but as far as I can tell Hussars did not have cocked hats. This whole area is confusing in the Dress Regs. There is a lot of jargon which simply escapes me Red tassles indicate a Field Marshal, General, Colonel and just about everybody else who was a staff officer. I do know that the Army Pay Department had blue tassles under the gold bullion but that's the only variation I have found so far. The major difference seems to be the "lace" used on the loop which was worn on the right hand side of the hat. The button would appear to be the key. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Here are the trimmings from the 1900 DRs - Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 And here is the 14th Hussars cap badge - Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Stuart - to me, the Dragon on the button looks more like a supporter. Another interesting point you made was in the length of the swans feathers for different ranks. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner - equivalent in rank to a full general - does wear the full plumes. However, I have a bi-corne for either a Dep. Comm. or, an Asst. Comm. (lt.Gen. and Maj.Gen. respectively) and it has only 6 inch ones - also, the underlaying feathers are a navy blue. I have no memory of buying this hat and whilst I have on occasion bought military helmets, my collecting instincts have always been British Police. So - I am thinking - did I buy it originally for a police connection ? This could account for the different lace and also - the button. This may be the Corporation Arms for the Town, Borough or, City. I will have a look through my refs. on British Corporation Heraldry - and perhaps one of our members may recognise the dragon ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) Mervyn, you make some good points and for me the killer as for its being military are the navy blue feathers. As far as I can tell only the following combinations were used - white over redred over whitewhite over black (Army Ordnance)black (Army Medical Services)white over yellow (Army Pay Department)red (Army Veterinary Department)black over white (Provost Marshal and Military Mounted Police) Stuart Edited May 10, 2011 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Mervyn, the Royal Navy did not sport plumes in their cocked hats and the loop was of twisted bullion interspersed with buttons. The blue feathers do tend towards police, having ruled out the Royal Navy. And it is not a Lord Lieutenant's etc. because of that navy blue. And the same applies to diplomatic people. Did/do mayors etc. wear a cocked hat with plume? Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Mayors' and Aldermen wear a cocked hat with fur trimmed robes - but, I don't recall plumes. I always find these bicorne hats interesting - they started off as three sided Tricornes in the 18th C. Became Bi-cornes - but were worn sideways - or, as the Navy put it 'athwartships'. This apparantly was uncomfortable and they were then worn fore and aft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Could it have been worn with Civilian Court Dress? I wonder if the badge is St George slaying the dragon? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hi - Craig. That's a good thought - Stuart probably knows more about their Dress Regs. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) No I don't but I looked up Dress Worn at His Majesty's Court published in 1912 and found nothing with blue feathers. Plenty of red/white and black. I found this entry for Metropolitan Police - Stuart Edited May 13, 2011 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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