Camberwell police

[Tony]

A photo of the police of Camberwell station taken in the late 1890s.

This card came with some others I bought recently and apart from a MKII Brodie policeman's helmet it's the only police related item I have.

The quality isn't very good I'm afraid, many are wearing a pair of medals that I can't identify and some only one medal. 3 men in civvies are standing behind a table that has what looks like two mantle clocks on it and another civilian is seated next to the table. Does anyone have any idea as to why they have clocks on the table and why men in civvies are in the centre?

Tony

[Adrob]

What a lovely pic. Thanks for shareing it with us !!

A photo of the police of Camberwell station taken in the late 1890s.

This card came with some others I bought recently and apart from a MKII Brodie policeman's helmet it's the only police related item I have.

The quality isn't very good I'm afraid, many are wearing a pair of medals that I can't identify and some only one medal. 3 men in civvies are standing behind a table that has what looks like two mantle clocks on it and another civilian is seated next to the table. Does anyone have any idea as to why they have clocks on the table and why men in civvies are in the centre?

Tony

[Mervyn Mitton]

Tony - a very interesting old photo. The men in suits at the table are probably Detectives - probably officers. To the left of them are Station Inspectors. There are also some civilians in the group - perhaps workers at the Station. On the outside right are men in uniforms holding musical instruments - they have different caps and are presumably a band. Lying on his side at the front is a uniformed man with a cap - I wouldn't have thought an Inspector would lay like this - so perhaps he is a gaoler ? With the clocks on the table I would, personally, think this to be a retirement ceremony for a couple of older Policemen who were leaving. Anybody have other thoughts ?

p.s. The men behind the table could of course, be senior officers' in plain clothes. What I do find strange is that no-one is wearing his whistle.....

[Tony]

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation.

I actually made a mistake with the year, this photo is from 1907.

On a number of the men there is something long and white hanging next to their buttons, on the left as we look at the photo. Could they be whistle chains? I'm embarrassed to say I have no idea where a policeman kept his whistle but would have thought in his top left brest pocket.

Tony

[Brian Wolfe]

Tony - a very interesting old photo. The men in suits at the table are probably Detectives - probably officers. To the left of them are Station Inspectors. There are also some civilians in the group - perhaps workers at the Station. On the outside right are men in uniforms holding musical instruments - they have different caps and are presumably a band. Lying on his side at the front is a uniformed man with a cap - I wouldn't have thought an Inspector would lay like this - so perhaps he is a gaoler ? With the clocks on the table I would, personally, think this to be a retirement ceremony for a couple of older Policemen who were leaving. Anybody have other thoughts ?

p.s. The men behind the table could of course, be senior officers' in plain clothes. What I do find strange is that no-one is wearing his whistle.....

Hi Mervyn,

I think you are spot on thinking this is a retirement ceremony. I would think they would have been of quite high rank considering there was a band on hand.

Regards

Brian

[Mervyn Mitton]

I have a feeling that Camberwell was the Divisional Station for 'M' Division - perhaps one of our members can help my memory out ? If I am right - then the Chief Superintendent will be one of the figures at the table.

Tony - the chain you talk about is the watch chain on the centre figure in plain clothes. Whistles for this uniform had the hook in the 2nd. button hole from the top - the chain hung down alongside the tunic crossover and the whistle was in a small pocket just inside the tunic. They were part of the uniform and I can't think of any reason that they are not being worn ? Lovely old photo. Mervyn

[Tony]

I have a feeling that Camberwell was the Divisional Station for 'M' Division - perhaps one of our members can help my memory out ? If I am right - then the Chief Superintendent will be one of the figures at the table.

Tony - the chain you talk about is the watch chain on the centre figure in plain clothes. Whistles for this uniform had the hook in the 2nd. button hole from the top - the chain hung down alongside the tunic crossover and the whistle was in a small pocket just inside the tunic. They were part of the uniform and I can't think of any reason that they are not being worn ? Lovely old photo. Mervyn

Thanks again Mervyn and now that you mention it, I can remember seeing the chain being worn. Although I can't remember if I saw them on real policemen or on Dixon of Dock Green.

Tony

[Craig]

Camberwell was the Divisional HQ for M District. Its now based at Walworth Road.

The nick is still there and last time I was there the local community teams work out of it.

If you look at a map or Google Earth its just off Camberwell Green where the local Magistrates court is.

Craig

[Mervyn Mitton]

Craig - now that was a surprise that I actually remembered the Div. Station after so many years........ Thanks for the confirmation.

Tony - this is how the whistle was worn. This was the Met's No.1 Uniform - worn until - I think - 1972, and it the same uniform as in your picture. ( Yes - it's me - on the way to 'Trooping the Colour.)

[Tony]

Craig, I know Camberwell but don't remember the station - I grew up in Bermondsey.

Nice photo Mervyn. I think I can see chains on some of the tunics as in your photo, if I can scan the card to show them I'll add it later.

Tony

[Craig]

Tony,

Do you remember the sub station of Carter Street? A fearsome reputation that nick had! so much so that you would get a nice confession from your prisoner as long as you told them they weren't going to Carter Street!

[Tony]

Tony,

Do you remember the sub station of Carter Street? A fearsome reputation that nick had! so much so that you would get a nice confession from your prisoner as long as you told them they weren't going to Carter Street!

No I'm afraid not. Carter St. rings a bell though.

My earliest memories of anything to do with the police in the area were the words 'George Davis is innocent' painted on many buildings especially down the Old Kent Rd. when walking from school to the library on the corner of Peckham Park Rd.

Tony

Edited May 24, 2011 by Tony

[Tony]

Mervyn,

I've cropped the photo and ringed (in an amateurist way) what look like whistle chains to me.

Tony

[Mervyn Mitton]

Yes - with this magnification you can see whistle chains. Thank goodness for that - I was getting worried - rattles had gone out in the 1860's.

I think the man in the front in a cap and holding a stick, must be the band master ?

[Tony]

I think I'll keep an eye out for more police photos, the information from everyone has been very interesting indeed.

Tony

[Odin Mk 3]

In 1907 Camberwell Division was P Division (just checked with the Law Directories for 1905 and 1910) and this included Camberwell Police Station.

The senior officer would have been a Superintendent at that time (the rank of Ch Supt was not in use then).

I have checked through the Police Orders I have here and on 2 Dec 1907 the Supt of P Div Mr George Carr retired (his Warrant Number was 50604). So I think this could be Mr Carr's retirement do.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Odin Mk 3

[Odin Mk 3]

Supt Carr's replacement was Supt Edward Glayzer (Warrant No 66790) so he is also probably in the photo with Carr

[Mervyn Mitton]

Well - that seems to pin it down. We tend to forget the changes in ranks and divisions so, good that you established them. The actual ceremony may have been for more than one person. There are two clocks on the table - and it looks like some smaller items.