HMS tallies: How to tell the difference

[2dresq]

Greetings,

I am looking at acquiring some Royal Navy tallies. I have studied the German tallies and have made a practice of recognizing a good one of these. However, with the Royal Navy, since several ships have been commissioned with the same name as some WW1 and WW2 names. Is there a method of how to detect if this tally is a period WW2 item or if it is post war?

Thanks,

JustinG 2dresq

[Mervyn Mitton]

Justin - this is a good topic and to collect British Tallies you do need some advice. Hopefully, there will be other members with a similar interest to give you pointers. One of the things to have to be careful of, is that there are a lot of later copies for the more famous names in warships. For example -

HOod , or the REPULSE - you would be lucky to buy a genuine one over the counter - but that doesn't mean they aren't available. There was a post a little time ago that outlined some of the changes between the Wars. I can't remember where it was now - may have been on this Forum?

I have some on a board and will post them for you to see.

ps. I have just googled 'books on british cap tallies' and some interesting sites came-up. By about page 1001 you should find some books listed.................

[Mervyn Mitton]

I promised to show a few Naval cap tallies - this board has pre 1939 - 2 of them are for shore establishments - there is also a Canadian Cadets.

[Mervyn Mitton]

This one is much rarer - pre World War 1. The shipping line was the - DEUTSCHE OST-AFRIKA LINIE and the name of the ship was D. USAMBARA (the D presumably stood for Deutsche ?)

There was a note with the Tally which gives the dates of Commission - change of owners and name. She was 6000 tons - a fair size for those days. I thinke she was either used on War service - or. was interned. There is no record - would be great if she was a blockade runner.

Whatever her history, this is a rare item for the ship collectors .

[Mervyn Mitton]

List of owners.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Close-up of the Line details

[Mervyn Mitton]

Close-up

[2dresq]

This is very nice. Thanks for sharing. I purchased four tallies: HMS Ark Royal, HMS Rodney, HMS Ajax and HMS Exeter. These are of course all very well known ships. I purchased them from a reputable dealer. When they finally arrive in my hands I will post scans/photos of them. Hopefully, the dealer will continue in my eyes, to be reputable. I am hoping to make a tribute to the Battle of the River Plate. So, I need the Achilles and perhaps the Cumberland tallies as well. :)

[Mervyn Mitton]

I will keep my fingers crossed for you that they are genuine. I am afraid that it is for these well known ships that every one is looking.

[2dresq]

I agree. The back construction looked good. However, I was aware. I didn't pay too much. A study of construction would be very helpful though. Here's a close up of the stitching of a German Kriegsmarine tally.

The one showing the reverse is Metalfaden thread. the lower obverse is cellon construction. Both are of the Panzerschiff Deutschland

Edited August 26, 2011 by 2dresq

[2dresq]

Could you post reverse stitching of one of your tallies please.

Regards,

JustinG

[Mervyn Mitton]

I will arrange it for next week. I've just noticed you are in Alaska - I'm watching a series on TV about Bush Pilots in Alaska - brave , or foolish - I can't

quite decide ??

[Mervyn Mitton]

Justin - the reverse of the British ones

[Mervyn Mitton]

Justin - reverse of the German one

[2dresq]

Thank you for posting.

The variations really are quite different. The British seemed to have a much looser standard than other countries. The Sea Cadets and HMS Marlbourough would be considered fake on construction alone if they were German made. The German liner is interesting. I only own 3 German Passenger ship talllies: The KdF W.Gustloff, Cap Arcona, and KdF Robert Ley. Never seen a muetzenband with the double words above and below. Thanks for sharing.

So, is there construction standard for HMS warships for the pre WW2 and WW2 era that was followed?

The Germans Strictly removed the named muetzenbands when the war started to protect the secrecy and prevent spies from being able to identify what ships were in port, and so, they went to the standard Kriegsmarine labeled muetzenband/tally; did the British do the same thing with the solo H.M.S labeling? I have seen a couple of these around.

Thank you for your time. Very interesting stuff.

Oh, Here's a reverse shot of the KdF ship. Wilhelm Gustloff which of course, was the worst maritime single loss of life ever.

Edited August 28, 2011 by 2dresq

[Mervyn Mitton]

That's the British - Justin - loose and cheerful ! Actually these British tallies are probably of different styles because of the War and the need to find somewhere to have them made. After all - who would bother to forge a Sea Cadets Tally ? However, you will find that older ones - and indeed later ones, conform more strictly to a laid down pattern. If you are interested in the Ost Afrika one drop me an IM. Mervyn

[QSAMIKE]

Justin......

There are some early cap tallies made with Gold Wire the same as the trade badges and also as shown by Mervyn Gold Thread.....

Mike

Edited August 29, 2011 by QSAMIKE

[Odulf]

Greetings,

I am looking at acquiring some Royal Navy tallies. I have studied the German tallies and have made a practice of recognizing a good one of these. However, with the Royal Navy, since several ships have been commissioned with the same name as some WW1 and WW2 names. Is there a method of how to detect if this tally is a period WW2 item or if it is post war?

Thanks,

JustinG 2dresq

There are many details from which pre and post war tallies can be recognized. Most significant are the length of the text (or the with of the letters) and the size of the dots. In general I hold the narrow letters and the narrow dots for the oldest. Post war tallies lack the dots after the ship's name. But also the (colour of the) material can be an indication.

Tallies were produced by various contractors, thus in the shape and details of letters ther can be differences (look at the R).

As stated above, it is a complicated matter, which takes a lot of experience that cannot be learned from just reading about it. One has to take time, rely on older and more experienced collectors (as I am indebted to old guys long gone) and a keen eye for details.

Enclosed some tallies of HMS PEMBROKE (RN Barracks in Chatham), built 1901 and closed 1976. Tallies with this name have been used for 3/4 century, and see the differences...

Also, it helps to use your whits and Janes or other reference books to date ship's/establishment's names.

Still specific differences can be told easily such as ryon lettering which was used in the 1940s and 50s, the new bling gold from the 1980s, and other features.

[Odulf]

Justin - this is a good topic and to collect British Tallies you do need some advice. Hopefully, there will be other members with a similar interest to give you pointers. One of the things to have to be careful of, is that there are a lot of later copies for the more famous names in warships. For example -

HOod , or the REPULSE - you would be lucky to buy a genuine one over the counter - but that doesn't mean they aren't available. There was a post a little time ago that outlined some of the changes between the Wars. I can't remember where it was now - may have been on this Forum?

I have some on a board and will post them for you to see.

ps. I have just googled 'books on british cap tallies' and some interesting sites came-up. By about page 1001 you should find some books listed.................

This is a sound advice Justin, I have some repro-ribbons in my collection, but just for the sake of study. Tallies of famous ship's names such as Rodney, Ark Royal, Hood, Repulse are in demand for all sorts or reasons; for instance by medal collectors who like to put up a group of medals to a casualty (or survivor) for display in combination with a tally. Also, these replicas were produced for gatherings of Naval veterans, thus not intentionally with evil objectives to deceive collectors.

There is no harm in replica tallies, as long as you know how to recognise them. Usually they are made on modern machines, so they are a dudd at long distance, unless you know how to tell an new tally from an old one.

I like the tallies of the small ships (minor percentage of the crew dressed as sailors), with a ship's name used only for a short time. When studying these ship's histories you might encounter ineresting pieces of Naval history which escaped the Grand Book.

The early tallies were made of silk, ship's names were (officially) embroidered in gold wire (in fact it was gilted copper), but due to circumstances these corroded and turned green and even rotted out of the silk... In the Great War and 2nd World War no ship's names were allowed on the ribbons, thus tallies with H. M. S. , H.M. SUBMARINES, H.M. COASTAL FORCES, H.M. MINESWEEPERS etc. were worn. Some of these were printed in gold on ryon, some embroidered in gold (for best dress) or pale yellow (for working rig). Also in the Dominions tallies were produced and these can be recognised by the material and the colour of yellow (I have found no evidence of gilt after the outhreak of war). In Malta there was a vivid home industry of Naval badges and tallies, so some hand-embroiderd tallies may come from there. Canada produced rayon pale yellow tallies on a rather loose wave after 1943, but all of this has to be taken not as the Gospel, for there was none. There was a War on, and they had no soft spot for collectors...

The final book on British and Commonwealth Naval Cap Tallies still has to be written, who takes the challenge?

[Mervyn Mitton]

Odulf - with the knowledge you have shown - I think you are the ideal volunteer ...................?

[2dresq]

There are many details from which pre and post war tallies can be recognized. Most significant are the length of the text (or the with of the letters) and the size of the dots. In general I hold the narrow letters and the narrow dots for the oldest. Post war tallies lack the dots after the ship's name. But also the (colour of the) material can be an indication.

Tallies were produced by various contractors, thus in the shape and details of letters ther can be differences (look at the R).

As stated above, it is a complicated matter, which takes a lot of experience that cannot be learned from just reading about it. One has to take time, rely on older and more experienced collectors (as I am indebted to old guys long gone) and a keen eye for details.

Enclosed some tallies of HMS PEMBROKE (RN Barracks in Chatham), built 1901 and closed 1976. Tallies with this name have been used for 3/4 century, and see the differences...

Also, it helps to use your whits and Janes or other reference books to date ship's/establishment's names.

Still specific differences can be told easily such as ryon lettering which was used in the 1940s and 50s, the new bling gold from the 1980s, and other features.

This is turning to be exactly what I am wanting. With regard to the "dots", am I correct in my assumption that it refers to the holes left where the stitching goes back and forth within the various letters and punctuation?

Quite an interesting study. I have been focused for so long on Kriegsmarine tallies and have now just started venturing out to the Royal Navy. I am expecting the 4 tallies purchased to arrive here some time soon.

Posted is an example of what I am assuming I have understood regarding the "dots".

This is a WW1 Naval German battery division

Thank you for your explanation.

Regards,

JustinG 2dresq

[2dresq]

So here's some of the tallies I received. HMS Exeter

Regards,

JustinG

[2dresq]

HMS ARK ROYAL

[2dresq]

HMS AJAX

Edited September 3, 2011 by 2dresq

[2dresq]

double post. Sorry.

Edited September 3, 2011 by 2dresq