HMS tallies: How to tell the difference

[2dresq]

HMS Rodney

Thanks for looking. The Ajax and Rodney kind of washed out a bit with the scan. They do have a yellow color to them.

And as always, any and all comments are welcome. I will post some scans of the reverse tomorrow.

Cheers,

JustinG

2dresq

[Odulf]

Hi Justin,

I don't intend to dissapoint you, but all of these tallies look like post war to me.

HMS AJAX was first commissioned 1935. In 1939/40 the tallies bearing the ship's name were exchanged for tallies reading H.M.S.. These tallies remained until after the war. Ajax was decommissioned 1948. I recon that few of her complement ever wore the tally with this ship's name after the war. In 1963 a Leander Class Frigate bearing the same name was commissioned. The tally dates from that period.

A tally bearing the name HMS RODNEY was worn between 1927 and 1940, however, in that period the letters were narrow and the full text was followed by a full stop. RODNEY was lost in the war and no ship was named likewise after the war. However, tallies with this name were made in the 1970s for collectors and veterans (see enclosed photo from my collection). When you compare your RODNEY with mine and with HMS RHYL, ROYALIST and RAPID you will notice that the type of lettering is all the same.

HMS ARK ROYAL was commissioned in December 1938 and sunk 1941. Tallies with the ship's name were worn for a very brief period. But after the war two RN Carriers (R09, 1950-1979; R07, 1981-2011) were commissioned and the tally was produced for that period.

HMS EXETER was commissioned mid 1931 and sunk 1942. The tally was used before the war, but with different (narrow) lettering followed by a full stop. This ship's name was used post war by a type 42 Destroyer from 1978.

Post war tallies had names followed by a "fat" full stop until the mid 1960s. I have many examples of these in my collection. Pre war tallies had narrow lettering and a meagre full stop. Post 1960s tallies have no full stop. In the 1980s letters were in stay brite colouring.

It helps also to check out the material of the ribbon. Pre war ribbons are of silk, during the war cotton was used until rayon came in use in the 1950s.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Odulf

[2dresq]

I appreciate the in-depth report. So, I am not seeing the stop difference. When I compare the (period) in the H.M.S. I am having a hard time seeing the difference. I am very new to the field of Royal navy items.

From your description, Post war to 1960's having a "fat stop" I am assuming that all these tallies that you have shown in the post above are post war and up to the 1960's. Am I correct in my assumption.

It is difficult to tell since the resolution on this forum must be reduced. When I look at the tallies: Roebuck, Rooke and Raleigh the threads seem to be at a angle going diagonal for the weave; is this so?

I appreciate the details you have posted. It is very informative. It seems like the British had several landmines set for collectors of their naval hat insignia.

I look forward to hearing more.

Cheers,

JustinG 2dresq

[2dresq]

So, I think I now understand, The Pembroke tallies listed above, there are two with stops/period mark after the ships name. this indicates that it was a pre war piece. So those are the only two of the long list that are pre-war?

Am I correct in my assumption? Since the naval unit you listed was in use for the span of the first and second world war, is there a construction difference or different material to help place the tally from the first vs the second world war? Was it only after the second World War that the Royal Navy decided to change their tradition of putting punctuation marks after the named unit?

This is fascinating stuff. I am grateful and do wish to learn more.

Thanks.

Regards,

JustinG

Edited September 3, 2011 by 2dresq

[Odulf]

I appreciate the in-depth report. So, I am not seeing the stop difference. When I compare the (period) in the H.M.S. I am having a hard time seeing the difference. I am very new to the field of Royal navy items.

From your description, Post war to 1960's having a "fat stop" I am assuming that all these tallies that you have shown in the post above are post war and up to the 1960's. Am I correct in my assumption.

It is difficult to tell since the resolution on this forum must be reduced. When I look at the tallies: Roebuck, Rooke and Raleigh the threads seem to be at a angle going diagonal for the weave; is this so?

I appreciate the details you have posted. It is very informative. It seems like the British had several landmines set for collectors of their naval hat insignia.

All tallies shown in #27 are post war. Please note that there are many different types of tallies because some ship’s names have been used more than once. The tally can give a good guide as to what ship it is from. So, a name such as EURYALUS can have at least three different tallies. To find out which way to tell is difficult but the full stops, if any, can be a good guide, but also the style of the letters.

Again this can cause a problem because of various makers so it all begins with full stops.

WW1 names have a smaller letter and a smaller (narrow) full stop (gold wire script)

1930 to 1939 tallies have a slightly larger full stop (gold wire script)

1946 to 1956 tallies gave a slightly larger full stop than 30-39 (gold wire & rayon script)

After 1956 (approx.) no stops were used anymore (saving material) (gold wire & rayon script)

1980 stay bright script

Rayon letters began in the 1940’s as an economy measure. Different makers had different shaped letters, but the letters are always of a near orange colour on a cotton ribbon (of that period). Pale yellow letters are also common but these were made in Australia, Canada, South Africa. During the war also tallies with printed script were used, but these were not official

In the 1950’s a new type of rayon was used, nearly olive green and on a different style of ribbon (harder) till the polyester ribbons came in.

[Odulf]

So, I think I now understand, The Pembroke tallies listed above, there are two with stops/period mark after the ships name. this indicates that it was a pre war piece. So those are the only two of the long list that are pre-war?

Am I correct in my assumption? Since the naval unit you listed was in use for the span of the first and second world war, is there a construction difference or different material to help place the tally from the first vs the second world war? Was it only after the second World War that the Royal Navy decided to change their tradition of putting punctuation marks after the named unit?

Indeed those two Pembrokes are pre-war. I will look up some more pre-war tallies to show you the difference in style.

It is wise not to buy any famous ship's name and believe that the tally was worn during the war, as I explained before, many famous names were carried in the Royal Navy for centuries. Most dealers have no clue what so ever about cap tallies, and they would sell a lot of nonsens with the tally for the sake of business.

It is a minefield, but also a very interesting field to explore, with very little reliable sources for information, but when you use your whits you'll pick up the information soon enough.

Let's start with the war-issues first.

This is a copy of an Order issued by the Royal Canadian Navy Board in 1942. The same regulations applied to all commonwealth navies.

[Odulf]

This is a list, made out by an old friend an collector, listing all the non-descriptive war-time tallies in his collections, and variations. The numbers in the last column are the numbers of tallies he had.

and here are some of mine:

Some of these are very rare, such as H.M,M.L. No.266 (Motor Launch)

H.M. MINESWEEPER is printed in gold

H.M. COASTAL FORCES is probably post war, for small crafts with less than 10 men dressed as seamen.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Odulf

[Odulf]

Already in 1915 tallies with H.M.S. were introduced for security reasons but, judging from contemporary photos, these were not popular because all through the Great War we see photos of men wearing tallies with ship's names.

Below some close-ups from portraits from my collection.

Post Card size studio photo, dating from the Great War.

Post Card size photo, from the Great War period.

[Odulf]

And some examples from the 2nd World War

Studio portrait dated 24 May 1941

Undated studio portrait

[Odulf]

ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION tally

Studio portrait from the photographer W.J.Wright in Upper Norwood.

The first assignment of the RND was Antwerp. The sailors went over to Belgium wearing their No.4 blue uniforms with canvas gaiters, belt and ammo-pouches and the blue topped sailors hat. Leather equipment was mainly reserved for use on board and naval shore parties. Photos show that the majority of these RND men wore the tallies ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE, R.N.V.R. and ROYAL FLEET RESERVE. Besides, also typical RNVR-divisional tallies were worn, depicting the abbreviation R.N.V.R., followed by an anchor, and the name of the respective division: LONDON, CLYDE, BRISTOL, MERSEY, SUSSEX, and TYNESIDE.

In December 1914, the men received khaki uniforms for field service in replacement of the sailor's uniform, but the sailors’ hat remained. On the sleeves of these 1905 style khaki uniforms, sleeve insignia were worn embroidered in red on dark blue cloth similar to the wear on the blue uniform. CPOs had their collar badges sewn on the lower sleeves; very much in the same position as the badges of rank of Army Warrant Officers.

At first the tally ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION was worn by all men, but the individual battalions afterwards were issued with tallies depicting the battalion’s names in writing. Undated photos taken in ‘Timbertown’ Camp, Groningen, show sailors wearing this tally. The tallies ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION remained in use by men dressed as sailors, attached to the divisional staff, men under training, unassigned men, and the RND Machine Gun Battalion. The originally white topped sailor's hats were died khaki for wear in the field.

Also brass, straight and curved shoulder titles R.N.D. were worn, in combination with loose Arab numbers to indicate the battalion. The shoulder titles were placed on a coloured strip of cloth, to indicate the company.

End of 1915 or early 1916 brass curved shoulder titles with battalion name were issued (but not always worn).

• DRAKE,
  
• HAWKE,
  
• BENBOW,
  
• COLLINGWOOD,
  
• NELSON,
  
• HOWE,
  
• HOOD,
  
• ANSON.
  
• The Machine Gun Battalion wore the general R.N.D. titles.
  
• Divisional Engineers wore the title ENGINEERS as a solid tablet, with as the lower part the curved R.N.D. title.
  

In May 1916, Army style khaki Service Dress caps were issued, with battalion badges in brass. Due to the heavy losses at Gallipoli, the “Benbow” and “Collingwood” battalions were disbanded in June 1915. So there were no cap badges produced for these two battalions. Badges were sighted to:

• DRAKE,
  
• HAWKE,
  
• NELSON,
  
• HOWE,
  
• HOOD,
  
• ANSON
  
• The Machine Gun Battalion had a cap badge identical to the Machine Gun Corps, but with a brass title R.N.D. underneath.
  

Various strikings of the same badges have been sighted, with both clips and rings (the latter positioned horizontal but also vertical) for fastening, but to confirm when these were produced is not easy as there are quite a few reproductions on the market.

Also, badges of rating, worn on the khaki uniform in red on blue early in the war, were produced embroidered red on khaki for wear on the khaki uniform later on.

[Odulf]

Some older tallies, pre 1914:

H.M.S. CONFLICT. a Destroyer, 1895-1920, Studio portrait from around 1900.

H.M.S. DIADEM. a Protected Cruiser, 1897-1921, Studio portrait from around 1900.

H.M.S. GANGES. the Boys Training Establishment in Falmouth (Photo studio W.J. Osborne in Falmouth, dating from around 1895. H.M.S. Ganges was a 2nd rate sailing ship of the line, dating from 1865, used as a training ship for boys. In 1899 she was taken to Devonport for refit and arrived in Harwich in November 1899, finaly to Shotley in 1903.

H.M.S. VIVID. was the name of the Devonport Naval Barracks a shore establishment (Photo stdio J.Grey in Plymouth, dating around 1895.

[Odulf]

H.M.S. VOLAGE. an Iron Screw Corvette from 1870, broken up in 1904. Studio portrait from T.Price and Son on Jersey round 1900.

H.M.S. VULCAN. a Depot Ship for torpedo boats, the Studio portrait dating from around 1900 is from the Malta Photographic Company in Valetta on Malta.

H.M.S. PEMBROKE. the RN shore establishment and Naval Barracks in Chatham. Studio portrait from about the Great War.

H.M.S. VICTORY. the RN shore establishment and Naval Barracks in Portsmouth. Studio portrait from about the Great War.

H.M.S. WILDFIRE. the RN Depot and Dock Yard in Sheerness between 1889 and1933. Studio portrait from about the Great War

[Odulf]

A very nice Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve tally is visible on this photo which is dated Aug. 26, 1916.

And a close/up

HMS AJAX. a King George V Class Battle Ship between 1912 and 1926, Studio portrait from the end of the Great War.

HMS ERIN. was built in Brittain as Reshadieh, a battle ship for the Ottoman Navy, but she was commissioned into the RN in AUgust 1914 and served until 1922. This studio porrait was taken by Kirks in Cowes, by the end of the Great War.

[Odulf]

An excreamely rare tally of the Womens Royal Naval Service between 1917 and 1919. The WRNS was disbanded in 1919 and revived 1939. This girl, Mildred G. Tabor from Bath, was stationed on the West coast of Ireland at the end of the Great War.

[Odulf]

ROYAL FLEET RESERVE pre war

ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE pre war

ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE post war

R.N.V.(W).R. (Royal Naval Volunteer Wireless Reserve) from the 1950s

[QSAMIKE]

Good Afternoon Gentlemen......

Found a Cap Tally that I used to wear.....

Mike

[Odulf]

@ QSAMIKE

That's a nice one, when was this worn and by what personnel?

[QSAMIKE]

This tally was worn prior to Unification and for a few years afterwards till 1969/70 when there were enough of the Green uniforms to go around..... They were worn by members of the Communications Research Branch......

Mike

[William1]

A very interesting topic. Can anyone give an opinion on the two tallies pictured below?

HMS Nile was sold off in 1912 so I presume this tally is no later than that. It appears to be in silk thread and is more elaborate than usual. Would this have been worn onboard, produced for some special occasion, or might it be just a ship's souvenir?

HMS Warspite served through both world wars. This tally seems to have narrow letters and dots but is not wire woven. It appears to be silk thread. Is this credible? Or is it a modern copy?

Thanks,

William.

[Odulf]

A very interesting topic. Can anyone give an opinion on the two tallies pictured below?

HMS Nile was sold off in 1912 so I presume this tally is no later than that. It appears to be in silk thread and is more elaborate than usual. Would this have been worn onboard, produced for some special occasion, or might it be just a ship's souvenir?

HMS Warspite served through both world wars. This tally seems to have narrow letters and dots but is not wire woven. It appears to be silk thread. Is this credible? Or is it a modern copy?

Thanks,

William.

The HMS Nile tally is a souvenir tally. These were also worn by kids in the days when it was fashionable to dress the little boys in a square rig. The little ship on the tally does not even look like the battleship with that name, no proud sailor of the ship's complement would wear a thing like that on his hat.

The HMS Warspite looks like a souvenir tally. The ship was placed in reserve early 1945 and sent to the breakers not long after, so I doubt if the Navy would have taken the trouble of ordering some 900 tallies for the complement dresed as seamen.However, it is a nice tally wih the name embroidered in pale yellow rayon followed by a full stop, as they were made in the late 1940s and 1950s.

[William1]

Hi Odulf

Thanks for the clarification!

W.

[prattmision]

As a complement to the above HMS Pembroke tallies I include one form my collection that was printed and dates back to 1930's