Red Cross - Lady's Order of Merit

[Dieter3]

Thought this was an interesting find. Yuukoushou with some different characteristics - it has some of the simplified features like a plain pin attachment for both the medal and the rosette. The case seems to be made of Bakelite like those postwar Rising Suns and Sacred Treasure cases, but with a lot more heft. The hinge is a pin running through the back of the case, not like the lacquered cases. I believe it is of aluminum. Different style hasp, that was used on some later awards (post-1956) - I'm only guessing, but this might be an actual war-era award, but must be pre-1956 before the Red Cross adopted separate silver and gold awards around that time. The medal itself seems to be of high quality, but the other features seem to hint at a lack of resources during or right after the war. That, or I have no idea what this is. Anybody have any ideas?

[Dieter3]

[Dieter3]

[Dieter3]

[JapanX]

... Anybody have any ideas?

I have one Dieter.

Internal furniture of the box and top layer of lacquer top are authentic.

Order and rosette - authentic.

Everything else - self made (the rest of the box).

Of course this is only a hypothesis. :)

Edited September 26, 2011 by JapanX

[Dieter3]

Hello! I'll have to look more closely - but it appears the case is all one blend of Bakelite, I'll check it again though! It's pretty good if it was home-made! Why do you hypothesize that that it is self-made?

[JapanX]

Hello! I'll have to look more closely - but it appears the case is all one blend of Bakelite, I'll check it again though! It's pretty good if it was home-made! Why do you hypothesize that that it is self-made?

Hi Dieter!

Certainly I meant that this box was at least partly home-made (do-it-your-self-style) (sorry for "self-made" its my russism ). Take a good look at the boderline of the top + I`ve never seen such clasp on order boxes. This type of clasp belong to the badges boxes. And then strange overall form of the box. This is mine reasons

"It's pretty good if it was home-made!" - I completely agree.

Cheers,

Nick

[Richard LaTondre]

Good Morning Daryn. You may want to consider the use of aluminum versus wartime availability in the dating of the case. Just a thought.

Richard

[Paul L Murphy]

I would say that this is from the post 1945 period but pre 1956 when the names changed. I have seen this type of box a few times in Japan, it is definitely not something that was "homemade". Red Cross awards are difficult to date since the cases changed so often !

[Richard LaTondre]

I think the idea of dating a medal to the case that it is in, could be quite risky!

Richard

[JapanX]

I think the idea of dating a medal to the case that it is in, could be quite risky!

Richard

Very true!

[JapanX]

I would say that this is from the post 1945 period but pre 1956 when the names changed. I have seen this type of box a few times in Japan, it is definitely not something that was "homemade". Red Cross awards are difficult to date since the cases changed so often !

I don`t think that this is mass production quality Paul.

This is more like "Hecho a mano" production style.

Of course this is only my subjective point of view.

Nick

[JapanX]

And what about this spacing?!

Does it really looks normal for the japanese order box? I don`t know...

[Dieter3]

Thank you all for the input!!! This is exactly what I was hoping for!!

Hi Dieter!

Certainly I meant that this box was at least partly home-made (do-it-your-self-style) (sorry for "self-made" its my russism ). Take a good look at the boderline of the top + I`ve never seen such clasp on order boxes. This type of clasp belong to the badges boxes. And then strange overall form of the box. This is mine reasons

"It's pretty good if it was home-made!" - I completely agree.

Cheers,

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, in fact a very similar type of clasp was used in both the silver and gold orders of merit on the cases that I believe were probably some of the first, post-1956 - they are the more narrow type, before the wider type was adopted. This is also a thinner clasp, not as generous in the use of metal, very plain, not like the use of brass or nickel or other more luxurious metals - though I don't know the construction of this one!

Good Morning Daryn. You may want to consider the use of aluminum versus wartime availability in the dating of the case. Just a thought.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Well, it is somewhat lost on me as to what medals were available. I believe that late in the war, aluminum was less in demand as aircraft manufacturing was ramping down, no?? I know other bits of metals like steel, iron, brass, chrome, all of these were harvested in the tiniest bits that seem insignificant, but were needed to manufacture the late crude war weapons that would be necessary in an anticipated homeland defense. So aluminum seems likely - the luster, the feel - it could be a cheap alloy.

I would say that this is from the post 1945 period but pre 1956 when the names changed. I have seen this type of box a few times in Japan, it is definitely not something that was "homemade". Red Cross awards are difficult to date since the cases changed so often !

Agree! The "cheapened" features of both the case and medal make me believe this was from a period where resources were much more limited - wartime, or soon thereafter.

I think the idea of dating a medal to the case that it is in, could be quite risky!

Richard

Indeed!! But we do know that the Yuukoushou evolved into the Silver and Gold Merit awards in 1956-ish, according to Red Cross literature - so when one sees the kanji for silver or gold, we can at least assume pretty safely I think that the award was post-1956! Same with the Special Membership medals. Other features though certainly give clues as to the time frame, but yes, slippery territory!!

I don`t think that this is mass production quality Paul.

This is more like "Hecho a mano" production style.

Of course this is only my subjective point of view.

Nick

Again, I defer to the lack of resources and skill associated with wartime or the period immediately following the war! The case is not of a low quality - it is very good - but it is not quite as nice as a wood-lacquer case. Functionally though, excellent. Care seems to have been put into it's construction, but Bakelite does cheapen the feel.

And what about this spacing?!

Does it really looks normal for the japanese order box? I don`t know...

Not completely, but again it is not bad at all. Some other order cases are a bit tweaky, especially other Bakelites like the post-war 7th and 8th class - some of them line up nicely, some do not. I'd imagine time takes it's toll!

[JapanX]

I don`t know Dieter ...

"Yes, in fact a very similar type of clasp was used in both the silver and gold orders of merit on the cases that I believe were probably some of the first, post-1956 - they are the more narrow type, before the wider type was adopted "

I think this is standart clasp for pre-war boxes for badges (naval institute, three-legged crow ....) of higher classes.

Nothing special about it.

Paul said that he have met such boxes before. Maybe "home-made" was made by a little workshop? I don`t know.

And then we are speaking about 1956! Its not that bad year for Japan. At least It`s not 1946. And even if it really so, than why so high quality order in not very quality box?

Still have my doubts... Very serious ones

And why you are so sure that this piece (I mean the order) can be dated by 1956? Only by attachments for the order and the rosette? I think that they are totally ok. Nothing simplified about them. Of course maybe its just me. But I saw orders with exact attachments in "usual" boxes.

Ok. Ok. I know that I am a little mistrustful guy

Cheers,

Nick

Edited September 28, 2011 by JapanX

[Dieter3]

Hi Nick,

So the point of the clasp being that because they were used in what I believe to be the first of the silver and gold orders after 1956 use a very similar clasp - this particular piece could have been a transitional one - I'm trying to piece together the evolution (if that is really possible!!)

It is also possible that the case was produced by a workshop - many of the lacquer cases were produced by independent lacquer-ware makers, I assume contracted by the Red Cross, but I do know for certain. So the idea is plausible.

No, 1956 wasn't 1946, but it wasn't peaches and cream either!

The Red Cross made changes to the various medals over time as we can tell, but with specificity to 1956 - this is actually found in Red Cross literature - this was when the simple Special Membership was changed to Silver and Gold Special Membership and Order of Merit became the Silver and Gold Orders. So prior to 1956, there were no gold medals - the merit award was simply Yuukoushou as the kanji indicate, merit award.

With regards to the attachments - the pins - before the war and then in modern awards these medals used a safety pin attachment for the medal and the rosettes were quite often buttons with the black disc base as we are familiar with - 2 things - these are more complicated to make, and use more raw material, cost more. So in pressing times as is war, everybody in manufacturing had to simplify and save where they could. Apparently, they were not willing to sacrifice the actual quality of the medal itself, not for the Order. We do know though that others suffered as they were made from aluminum. More modern pieces re-adopted the more complex safety pin attachment and the black base button, that eventually became the modern all-metal cross pin.

These Orders are harder to examine and find, but look at the Special Members medal - the pre-war ones at some point adopted a safety pin, I don't know when specifically, perhaps in the 1930s. So yes, these are totally normal, nothing odd about them - but they are simplified forms - why? Well, these are only my theories here - I'm trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together!!!

[JapanX]

The Red Cross made changes to the various medals over time as we can tell, but with specificity to 1956 - this is actually found in Red Cross literature - this was when the simple Special Membership was changed to Silver and Gold Special Membership and Order of Merit became the Silver and Gold Orders. So prior to 1956, there were no gold medals - the merit award was simply Yuukoushou as the kanji indicate, merit award.

Yes I think I`ve heard about this somewhere. But why you think it is exactly 1956-1958 or 1956-1960... Because of the box? But why box came from this period exactly? We don`t have any hard evidence...

Edited September 29, 2011 by JapanX

[JapanX]

With regards to the attachments - the pins - before the war and then in modern awards these medals used a safety pin attachment for the medal and the rosettes were quite often buttons with the black disc base as we are familiar with - 2 things - these are more complicated to make, and use more raw material, cost more. So in pressing times as is war, everybody in manufacturing had to simplify and save where they could. Apparently, they were not willing to sacrifice the actual quality of the medal itself, not for the Order. We do know though that others suffered as they were made from aluminum. More modern pieces re-adopted the more complex safety pin attachment and the black base button, that eventually became the modern all-metal cross pin.

Heard about this too

So this is it.

[JapanX]

Do you really think this small difference wiIl do it?

I have serious doubts...

Edited September 29, 2011 by JapanX

[JapanX]

And specially for you Dieter - early style of attachment for Gold Order.

What do you think about it?

Edited September 29, 2011 by JapanX

[JapanX]

To sum up I am not sure that

a) the box is completely legit (I can`t find any direct evidence for that)

b) the order and rosette is "after war" (I can`t find any direct evidence for that)

Of course this is only my point of view and nothing more.

Just trying to sort things out

P.S. Sorry for being such pain in the neck Dieter. I really enjoy our discussion :beer:

[Dieter3]

No, no, not at all! You are not a pain in the neck! This is a great discussion! We do have direct evidence for at least this style of rosette and attachment pin on the medal occuring after the war - you will see the same designs used in both silver and gold merit medals and special members medals, and lifetime member's medals. It's very obvious because these were in cases with kanji for silver and gold (other than the life member of course!) and we know this happened after 1956 - this is good evidence! The bad evidence is was this applied at all during the war? Probably.

[JapanX]

We do have direct evidence for at least this style of rosette and attachment pin on the medal occuring after the war - you will see the same designs used in both silver and gold merit medals and special members medals, and lifetime member's medals. It's very obvious because these were in cases with kanji for silver and gold (other than the life member of course!) and we know this happened after 1956 - this is good evidence! The bad evidence is was this applied at all during the war? Probably.

Probably... I think the main problem is for how long this rosette style and attachment were in use...

And again I want to bring your attention to the order itself. It`s quality... Excellent as usual... Where "early difficulties"? ;)

Edited September 29, 2011 by JapanX

[Dieter3]

Yes, I do not know for how long these were in use, but you can find them with the Orders that come in the lacquer cases and the black, "modern" cases - however they are typically the earlier ones of these (they are not as tall, have the thinner kanji style, not the really bold style). When exactly these cases were started I do not know, 70s? 80s? But at some point, the full button came back, and then the modern all-metal pin, maybe 80s, or 90s?

You are right though - the orders are still of top-quality no matter the period - they do not seem to have cut corners on those! - BUT I would offer that there are probably very few of these from the war period for financial reasons and personal circumstances, but just a guess.

[JapanX]

No, 1956 wasn't 1946, but it wasn't peaches and cream either!

So what is exactly this “not peach and creamy” time?

In concordance with my information Japan in 1957 held

1^st place in the shipbuilding (I heard that this is quite metal consuming industry, though 99% of all iron ore and nonferrous metals were imported)

1^st place in fishing

1^st place in production of ceramics

1^st place in production of raw yarn

2^nd or 3^rd place in rice production

2^nd or 3^rd place in production of ceramics

2^nd or 3^rd place in production of photo equipment and radios

2^nd place in production of engineering tools

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera…

Held place where?

In the world!

Not bad! Not bad at all!

So where we were?

Attachment economies?

For real?

...they do not seem to have cut corners on those!

Of course they don`t! They could afford it back in 1956!