Dieter3 Posted October 24, 2011 Author Posted October 24, 2011 Yes, the box is the mystery!! But one thing, we can say it does not date as far back as 1930 - this latest post is one that is from that era - but the one from the mystery box is definitely a later piece than this, I don't think it can be form the 1930s. It just goes against the observed construction conventions. But you would be right to say there is no written proof of anything!! These are certainly not rare awards at all, (yes, the one box is odd, I'd call it scarce if not rare....) - BUT the documents certainly are. i wonder why? I would think the documents would show up more frequently given the number of medals found. It would be useful to find mated medals and documents to help with placing dates to medal types. I know this is not 100% guaranteed, but it would be a start. Alas, it is a rare thing to find this situation!! At some point, I will make measurements of the thickness of this medal compared to the others, again - not helpful yet - but it may be of value at some point - placing thicker, heavier medals within a timeframe, or possibly from a specific maker???
JapanX Posted October 24, 2011 Posted October 24, 2011 But one thing, we can say it does not date as far back as 1930 - this latest post is one that is from that era - but the one from the mystery box is definitely a later piece than this, I don't think it can be form the 1930s. It just goes against the observed construction conventions. ??? Could you explain this construction conventions for doubting Thomas It would be useful to find mated medals and documents to help with placing dates to medal types. Yes. This is the only antidote ;)
Dieter3 Posted October 24, 2011 Author Posted October 24, 2011 ??? Could you explain this construction conventions for doubting Thomas Yes! Primarily the forms of attachment and the types of rosettes used - like this earlier piece in the lacquer box - these pieces had stick-pin rosettes for ladies, as did the special membership medals, not a simple pin back - a later adoption. Same with the safety pin design - the "safer" version used on earlier and very late pieces. In other words - you do not see this type of medal in a lacquer box as "Order of Merit" - they are always of a safety pin design. You do see them in post-war lacquer boxes that are marked distinctly with "Gold" or "Silver" Order of Merit, along with the stick-pin rosette being lost at some point, probably during the war. Note how I highlighted the word "observed"!! And of course I have not seen all there is to see, I can only make my claims based on what I have seen to date. But this what I mean by convention - structural features that can be associated with other features or time periods.
JapanX Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Yes! Primarily the forms of attachment and the types of rosettes used - like this earlier piece in the lacquer box - these pieces had stick-pin rosettes for ladies, as did the special membership medals, not a simple pin back - a later adoption. Same with the safety pin design - the "safer" version used on earlier and very late pieces. Sorry mate, I would like to agree, but.... a) there are a probability (and not small) that all this types for some time were in use simultaneously (I mean stick-pin rossete and two versions of pin rosettes) b) I wonder where is button rosettes in your time distrubution (hope you will agree that they are from 30s) In tote very speculative. To attribute orders by the type of rosettes... Its like attributing soviet orders only by the screw type ... Rosette is not necessary or sufficient criterion for attributation of japanese orders. This is my point of view. And I hope you will agree. Edited October 26, 2011 by JapanX
Dieter3 Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 Well, what exactly do you mean by "two versions of pin rosettes"....?? Perhaps we need to make a classification scheme like you used for the Sacred Treasure reverse, eh? Yes, there is a possibility that there is overlap with things like cases, and rosettes, of course! Especially as things moved towards simplification, and declines in quality. But I contend that the overlap periods would be very short, and somewhat hard to pinpoint, maybe within one year's time, maybe two at most. For example - I have never seen either the Special Member's medals or Orders of Merit in the lacquer cases with a simple-pin type rosette - they are always the black disc type or the stick pin (typically) in the case of women's medals. These medals would date to I'm guessing the late 20s and into the early 30s, so YES! Agree with you that these buttons and sticks due include that time period. What I don't know is how far back to the sticks go?? The buttons go back to earlier awards for sure. We do know that in the case of special membership and life membership medals that the sticks and buttons extended into the time period where cases became less elegant - what are called "paste board" cases (What the heck is paste board?) later 30s and into the 40s. It was somewhere in the 40's that the simple pin-back rosette came to be - and this is where you will have overlap of buttons and pins. Clearly, the pin-backs were used post-1956 - you see this in the special membership medals when they became "silver" and "gold" for sure, but probably before this too. Like I said from probably from the later war years, certainly the late 40s. So - I disagree - that this is VERY speculative, it is not - it is somewhat speculative, but not entirely. There are gray areas, and there are givens - it's matching trends based on what we're given, filling in the blanks so to say. I believe that all criteria can be used to classify the Red Cross medals in general - cases, rosettes, colors, materials used, trends in quality. Yes indeed!! This can all be used in classification as it relates to period.
JapanX Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Well, what exactly do you mean by "two versions of pin rosettes"....?? Perhaps we need to make a classification scheme like you used for the Sacred Treasure reverse, eh? Another classification? Do you really think my classifications are popular? Look around. Check this out mate. Its only me and you . Nobody else around Of course I`ll do it. Give me some time and I`ll need every photo piece you could provide. ... (What the heck is paste board?) ... I think its a synonym of cardboard and is used in case of multilayer cardboard (I think it should be written as a solid word). So - I disagree You are real pain in the neck! That who you are! :lol: Cheers mate, Nick Edited October 26, 2011 by JapanX
Dieter3 Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 Another classification? Do you really think my classifications are popular? Look around. Check this out mate. Its only me and you . Nobody else around Yes, people must think we are crazy, perhaps a bit too serious! But that's all part of the fun and interest for me! Of course I`ll do it. Give me some time and I`ll need every photo piece you could provide. O.K., give me some time - actually I think this will be easy. I think its a synonym of cardboard and is used in case of multilayer cardboard (I think it should be written as a solid word). Yes, it makes sense. I'm just not satisfied with this term since the cases are wood with a papery cover, and I guess they use a cardboard (pasteboard?) liner! Hmmm.....no, not satisfied at all, but I guess it will have to do for now. You are real pain in the neck! That who you are! :lol: Cheers mate, Nick Well, somebody has to be!
Dieter3 Posted October 28, 2011 Author Posted October 28, 2011 O.K., might be entering the realm of complete geekiness here. I do actually have a life, I really do, but you might not know it with some of these posts! O.K., Nik - this is for you....a new categorization scheme for rosettes.... (is this trip really necessary?? ) Not sure if this one even needs to be brought into the picture, but the basic members rosette, obviously only belongs to one type of medal, and only exists as ONE kind that I know of, though they do vary in size and color. But I guess for reasons of being complete, it should be included: Perhaps we can refer to it as "Type I" Simple bow on pin.
Dieter3 Posted October 28, 2011 Author Posted October 28, 2011 Type II - What I like to call the button, with our familiar black disc base.... http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-47268000-1319824220.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-92335600-1319824242.jpg Type III - The stick pin - pretty bloody obvious! Type IV - Button with a pin-back: http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-86817500-1319824524.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-00551200-1319824540.jpg Type V - Arguably not needed, very limited - for "corporate" merit awards, silver and gold flavors, best I can tell, limited to this exact design, but not to be confused with the Type VI http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-31639800-1319824667.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-78132100-1319824690.jpg Type VI - Modern pin style for respective silver and gold Orders of Merit O.K. Nick - let's have it!!
JapanX Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) Nice classification mate Here comes my time attribution. Type 1 (never saw this type in an order box) end of 19th century-1920 Type 2-4 1930-mid 60s (actually I've once found type 2 in the box for (and with ) the first type of red cross order! (remember your discussion of this type you had with Josef?) Type 5-6 1970-present time (type 6) The main problem is precise dating of types 2-4. Type 2 could be found in all kind of boxes (wooden, lacquered and no-wood-god-only-knows-from-what-made boxes). Same may be true in case of type 3-4??? I don't know. But type 2 is very "scattered". We have no guarantees that types 2-3 (or even 4!) came exclusively from before-WWII period. I think that we all agree that this equality Order manufacturer = Rosette manufacturer = Box manufacturer doesn't hold. At least there is a huge probability that it doesn't hold. That's why I don't like the idea of dating the orders by the rosettes (or boxes). We couldn't even precisely dated every type of rosette! Cheers mate, Nick P.S. A piece of advice - get a life! I know I know - looks who's talking! :lol: Edited October 28, 2011 by JapanX
Dieter3 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 Nice classification mate Here comes my time attribution. Type 1 (never saw this type in an order box) end of 19th century-1920 That's right - I only included this for a general conversation about rosettes - never find with Orders, just basic membership medals - you are correct! Type 2-4 1930-mid 60s (actually I've once found type 2 in the box for (and with ) the first type of red cross order! (remember your discussion of this type you had with Josef?) Yes! You will find all of these Types with the Orders - the problem is the time frames as you said - we'll get to that.... Type 5-6 1970-present time (type 6) Type 5 and 6 have a distinction though - Type 5 belongs to the corporate orders, and 6 belongs to the more familiar men's and women's orders. I won't say Type 5 has not occurred with men and women's orders, but I've never seen them (only Type 6) - they are very similar, but obviously the attachments are different. I can only guess Type 5 was introduced at the same time as the corporate orders, post-war and went away when these went away. Type 6 - you could be right - 70's, but I suspect more 80's I believe that Type 2 was reintroduced in the 60s or 70s to be replaced by Type 6 in the 80s. The main problem is precise dating of types 2-4. Type 2 could be found in all kind of boxes (wooden, lacquered and no-wood-god-only-knows-from-what-made boxes). Same may be true in case of type 3-4??? I don't know. But type 2 is very "scattered". We have no guarantees that types 2-3 (or even 4!) came exclusively from before-WWII period. Type 2 - Has its beginnings in Meiji period and exists thru the Showa Period. (They are observed into, disappear, and then reappear all within Showa period, scattered like you said....) Type 3 - Perhaps introduced during Taisho, definitely included in Showa era and pre-war, I think we do know that these had origins before the war. Type 4 - Only Showa era, late-war (I think) and post-war we know for sure. I don not believe any examples will be found before the war. I don't think Types 2 and 3 were exclusive to pre-war - these probably continued into the war and may have had overlap at some point with Type 4 - I still believe that Type 2 and 3 disappeared at some point during the war to be replaced by the Type 4. I think that we all agree that this equality Order manufacturer = Rosette manufacturer = Box manufacturer doesn't hold. At least there is a huge probability that it doesn't hold. That's why I don't like the idea of dating the orders by the rosettes (or boxes). We couldn't even precisely dated every type of rosette! Cheers mate, Nick P.S. A piece of advice - get a life! I know I know - looks who's talking! You are right - precision dating is very difficult! But I do think certain generalizations hold true and that dating within a margin of error is indeed possible based on all of these features and other knowledge that we have. There are clues elsewhere that offer insights into dating of some of these items! Sorry, I'm beyond getting a life at this point! ;)
Dieter3 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 I should also NOTE: in post #59, the pics. of the Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4 are all examples of the Special Member's rosettes, NOT the rosettes of Orders - these were just photos for examples of general design for the Types, there are other differences that distinguish the actual Order/Silver Order of Merit and Gold Order of Merit - I don't want anybody confused that is watching all of our craziness!! :lol:
JapanX Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Actually I think that type 1 rosette for early order of red cross should exists somewhere. Of course it will be without pin and with white buttom. Will look something like that piece. But I`ve never seen it.
JapanX Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) There is a probability, that another type of rosette for red cross order existed with this attachment. Usually you could find this rosettes in boxes for woman version of sacred treasure orders. Edited October 29, 2011 by JapanX
Dieter3 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 Actually I think that type 1 rosette for early order of red cross should exists somewhere. Of course it will be without pin and with white buttom. Will look something like that piece. But I`ve never seen it. Same here, never seen one, but it is a possibility. I am in doubt of this however because of that and also, how would they distinguish between the order and the special membership rosettes in that case?
Dieter3 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 There is a probability, that another type of rosette for red cross order existed with this attachment. Usually you could find this rosettes in boxes for woman version of sacred treasure orders. That would be the Type 4 (which simply refers to the attachment being a pin like this) - there could of course be variations of the attachment!
JapanX Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) Same here, never seen one, but it is a possibility. I am in doubt of this however because of that and also, how would they distinguish between the order and the special membership rosettes in that case? There will be no distinction as we see in the case of early style rosettes for golden kites. Whenever in doubt - just call me :lol: Edited October 29, 2011 by JapanX
JapanX Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Could be, could be! You are too mistrustful my friend! Just look at me! One truly confiding person! P.S. Same goes for the rising sun and sacred treasure early rosettes.
JapanX Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) Let's go back. Remember this statement? I don`t think that between 1945 and 1956 there were any RC orders awarded. Is that really so? This is what I found in Peterson 3rd edition, p. 76 "A badge (i.e. RC order) awarded in 1952 has a ..." This is the only written evidence I could find about post war awards that were made before 1956. Edited November 3, 2011 by JapanX
Dieter3 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Posted November 3, 2011 Well, not being a government organization, I don't find it all that surprising that medals were still given, though I'd imagine under post-war circumstances, far fewer would be out there. Sure wish more documents were available for examination at least just to see the dates. I know this information is buried somewhere in the Red Cross literature and n their library (which is open to the public by the way) - just a matter of FINDING the bloody info! Unfortunately, a loot of the staff are volunteer and really don't know a whole lot, especially about medals! One young lady I interacted with there was at first less than helpful (surprisingly for a Japanese!), but then seemed to become somewhat intrigued if not perplexed buy what I was seeking. She was able to actually produce some interesting text for me, and she showed me the cased medal collection they have (post-war), though she admittedly knew very little about them other than they existed! Hey, it's not everyday you get a white guy walking into the Japan Red Cross asking about medals! At any rate, by far the most intriguing piece out of the Japan Red Cross medals was the pair of Honorary Membership medals that they had. By far the most rare of Red Cross medals, and the only ones I have ever seen other than a photo in a book. Anybody here actually have one of these?
JapanX Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 One young lady I interacted with ... Let's hope your wife will not read this ... ... And she showed me the cased medal collection... I hope you took some pictures! It will be really cool to see them mate... Anybody here actually have one of this? Yes. I know someone with this piece (if you mean completely gold plated medal) in his collection I will ask for photos... But you know... This collectors...
Dieter3 Posted November 4, 2011 Author Posted November 4, 2011 Oh yes, I got a picture! These are them:
JapanX Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Thanks a lot mate! Both versions ... Fabulous ... Nice display they got back in RC library...
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