Simple test for “military” division of Lion and Sun order

[JapanX]

I am sure that many of us aware that Lion and Sun order had two divisions: miltary and civil.

But was it really so?

Anyway (just in case) here they are.

Edited January 24, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Civil vs. Military division

[JapanX]

Well the most simple test will be to find an authentic group of awards for military man.

Even better for foreigner military man

Because I really think that "lying lion = foreigner division" and "standing lion = persian division".

Well luckily for us I found such group.

It was sold in one auction 11 years ago.

Here it is.

[JapanX]

Group

[JapanX]

It was awarded to Brigadier-General H. F. Bateman-Champain, 1st and 9th Gurkhas, commanding British Forces in North West Persia 1918-21, and Secretary-General British Red Cross Society 1922-33.

What we`ve got here is

The Order of St. Michael and St. George, C.M.G., neck badge,

India General Service 1854-95, 1 clasp, Waziristan 1894-95 (Lt., 1st/1st Gurkhas)

India General Service 1895-1902, 2 clasps, Punjab Frontier 1897-98, Tirah 1897-98 (Lt., 1st/1st Gurkhas)

1914-15 Star (Major, 9/Gurkha R.)

British War and Victory Medals, with M.I.D. oak leaf (Brig. Gen.)

General Service 1918-62, 1 clasp, N.W. Persia, with M.I.D. oak leaf (Brig. Gen.)

Delhi Durbar 1903, silver; Coronation 1911

Persia, Order of the Lion and Sun, 1st class, sash badge and breast star

Edited January 24, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Hugh Frederick Bateman-Champain was born on 6 April 1869, second son of Sir John Bateman-Champain, K.C.M.G., Royal Engineers. He was educated at Cheltenham College and R.M.C. Sandhurst, and joined the West Yorkshire Regiment in 1889. He transferred to the Indian Army and joined the 1st Gurkhas in 1890, taking part in the Waziristan operations of 1894-95, including the action at Wana on 3 November 1894 (Medal with clasp).

‘The British Camp was set up on the Plain of Wana, but the position was not a good one, as it was close to a number of ravines. In the early hours of 3 November, 1894, a party of about 500 fanatical Mahsud Waziris crept silently up two large ravines near the camp and overwhelmed the piquets there. Although the latter got off three shots in warning, the attack was so swift and deadly that the enemy were inside the camp before the troops were even awake. The section of the camp held by the 1/1st Gurkhas took the full force of the attack, and it seems almost certain that many of the Gurkhas were killed in their tents. When the troops turned out, however, they stopped the main rush down the centre of the camp, and eventually drove out the enemy with the bayonet. In all, the escort lost 45 killed and 75 wounded, besides many rifles lost.’

He next served in the operations on the North West Frontier of India 1897-98, Mohmand (Medal with clasp); Tirah Expedition 1897-98, on the Staff, including the capture of the Sampagha and Arhanga Passes, and operations in the Bazar Valley, 25 to 30 December 1897 (Clasp). He was mentioned in despatches for Waziristan 1894-95, and for Tirah 1897-98.

Edited January 24, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

During the Great War he served in France and Gallipoli 1914-15, and as Brigade Commander in Mesopotamia and North Persia 1917-20. He was mentioned in despatches London Gazette 13 July 1916, 27 August 1918, and 5 June 1919; created C.M.G. 1918, and awarded the Order of the Lion and Sun, 1st class, of Persia. Promoted to Brigadier-General in 1917, he commanded the British Forces in North West Persia from 1918 to 1922, and in August 1920 he assumed command of Noperforce (North Persia Force). This Force consisted of the 36th (Indian) Mixed Brigade and three R.A.F. Squadrons. These units were used primarily to overcome banditry, to restore order and to prevent the Bolsheviks from entering Persia, all the while with regard to instructions from the Indian Government that “Our troops must on no account be committed to fresh enterprises which might lead to a difficult situation.” The operations ended in December 1920 and he was created a Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George, as well as receiving the medal with clasp for ‘N.W. Persia’. He retired in 1922 and became General-Secretary of the British Red Cross Society from then until his death on 7 October 1933.

Edited January 24, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Well, I think we will all agree that this man wasn`t a nurse or office clerk.

But his lions are definitely lying.

So maybe lying lion is indeed indication of award for foreigner and not an indication of military division.

Edited January 24, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

I mean maybe this picture is more true to facts?!

[JapanX]

And then we should remember, that the standing lion with sword was official national coat of arms of Persia.

Edited January 24, 2012 by JapanX

[Markus]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for this nice thread! This does back up your theory about laying lions are for foreigners. Come to think of it, when ever they are in medal bar awarded to a foreign military person, they always are laying down. Do you think within Persia a distinction is made between civil and military? The iranian websites detailing this order always say, " Laying down lions are civil, sword lions military" Now we need to find a Persian civil servant award with documentation.

Markus

[Great Dane]

Maybe the truth is even more complex:

According to C. P. Mulder's "Persian Orders 1808-1925", the standing lion holding a sabre is for the military division, while the lion lying down is for the civil division, and then he adds "Foreigners always receive the civil decoration" (and he continues to explain that even the grading system was different for persians and foreigners).

/Michael

[Markus]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your post. I tried finding a copy of this book for sale on line and could not. It appears that it was written in the english language. Do you have this book in your possession to pull out more details? If you know where I can purchase this book please let me know. I have been searching for more sources on the Persian Lion & Sun order.

Thanks, Markus

[JapanX]

Maybe the truth is even more complex:

According to C. P. Mulder's "Persian Orders 1808-1925", the standing lion holding a sabre is for the military division, while the lion lying down is for the civil division, and then he adds "Foreigners always receive the civil decoration" (and he continues to explain that even the grading system was different for persians and foreigners).

/Michael

Yes, very interesting Michael. Could you please post a scan of this page?

Regards,

Nick

[JapanX]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for this nice thread! This does back up your theory about laying lions are for foreigners. Come to think of it, when ever they are in medal bar awarded to a foreign military person, they always are laying down. Do you think within Persia a distinction is made between civil and military? The iranian websites detailing this order always say, " Laying down lions are civil, sword lions military" Now we need to find a Persian civil servant award with documentation.

Markus

I hoped you like it

I will post a new thread completely devoted to medal of this order.

Cheers,

Nick

[JapanX]

Maybe the truth is even more complex:

According to C. P. Mulder's "Persian Orders 1808-1925", the standing lion holding a sabre is for the military division, while the lion lying down is for the civil division, and then he adds "Foreigners always receive the civil decoration" (and he continues to explain that even the grading system was different for persians and foreigners).

/Michael

By the way, if C.P. Mulder is right, then

1) there was an "astronomical" number of military man in Persia - judging by the number of Lion and Suns with standing lion

2) the only way to differentiate between Persian civilian award and foreigner award is document

[Great Dane]

Yes, the book is very hard to find.

And it is small (50 or so pages) with terrible pictures in black and white. Text is in english with a danish resumé.

He mentions several times that due to the lack of sources, a lot of info is uncertain (apparently the persians didn't really document statutes or other essential information or it was lost at some point).

...

Hmm... would like to show the page, but my image uploads seem to be scaled to max 205 x 300 pix, which makes a page quite unreadable...

/Michael

[JapanX]

Yes, the book is very hard to find.

And it is small (50 or so pages) with terrible pictures in black and white. Text is in english with a danish resumé.

He mentions several times that due to the lack of sources, a lot of info is uncertain (apparently the persians didn't really document statutes or other essential information or it was lost at some point)

/Michael

All books devoted or mentioned Persian orders have the same kind problem...

Hmm... would like to show the page, but my image uploads seem to be scaled to max 205 x 300 pix, which makes a page quite unreadable...

/Michael

Bummer...

Anyway if you'll be in the mood you can always PM me your mail, I'll reply, you will send this page or pages to me and I'll try to do something about it.

Thanks,

Nick

[Great Dane]

PM sent.

[James Hoard]

Maybe the truth is even more complex:

According to C. P. Mulder's "Persian Orders 1808-1925", the standing lion holding a sabre is for the military division, while the lion lying down is for the civil division, and then he adds "Foreigners always receive the civil decoration" (and he continues to explain that even the grading system was different for persians and foreigners).

Indeed, Michael is right.

The awards to foreigners were different. Esseantially a simplified version of the order, reduced to roughly the same number of classes as standard European orders so as to facilitate the exchanges of orders so that like classes could be exchanged for like. A European recipient who would, according to his rank and service, generally recieve a Grand Cross if being rewarded by his own country, received the First Class from the Persian government for services rendered to Persia.

The order, as awarded to Persian nationals, once came in eight classes, each with further divisions within the eight. The Eighth class, for example, came with four divisions. The seventh class had five, and so on up the ladder.

Although these eight were reduced to a more manageable five in the reorganisation of 1872, and the differences between awards to foreigners and Persian subjects less pronounced, differences still remained. There continued to be different divisions for Persians depending on whether they were for military, civil or religious services and the rank of the recipient. Not only did a Persian military recipient receive a standing lion with sword, his ribbon was a different colour and/or colour combination depending on rank. For example:

- dark blue in the centre with green borders (vasat abi-e sir-tar va astraf sabz) for those of the rank of military commander-in-chief or General commanding an army corps, or equivalent;

- red in the centre with green borders (vasat qermez atraf sabz) for Major Generals, or equivalent;

- red in the centre with white borders (vasat qermez atraf sefid) for Brigadier-Generals, or equivalent rank;

- red (qermez) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank;

- white (safid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.

If one was the sovereign, the ribbon was sky blue. The Prime Minister and those holding the highest court rank, green. A Minister Plenipotentiary or one of equivalent rank, cobalt blue. A cleric, red. Etc, etc, etc.

The order was awarded in huge numbers. Not only that, as one progressed up the ladder, one simply added the new class or grade to one's breast. So by the time one ended up, say, as Prime Minister, one's breast could be festooned with eight or so stars plus badges of the self same order.

One can go on in more and more detail, but all this is rarely known or comprehended in the West, where people have hardly heard of them.

Cheers,

James

[JapanX]

- dark blue in the centre with green borders (vasat abi-e sir-tar va astraf sabz) for those of the rank of military commander-in-chief or General commanding an army corps, or equivalent;

- red in the centre with green borders (vasat qermez atraf sabz) for Major Generals, or equivalent;

- red in the centre with white borders (vasat qermez atraf sefid) for Brigadier-Generals, or equivalent rank;

- red (qermez) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank;

- white (safid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.

If one was the sovereign, the ribbon was sky blue. The Prime Minister and those holding the highest court rank, green. A Minister Plenipotentiary or one of equivalent rank, cobalt blue. A cleric, red. Etc, etc, etc.

Thanks for posting this interesting addendum James.

I've got only one question.

Why all lion and sun orders with standing lion have green ribbon??? (excerpt one that have red ribbon and was shown to us by private collector)

At least all orders that we observe nowadays...

What are they - replacements? All of them?

One can go on in more and more detail, but all this is rarely known or comprehended in the West, where people have hardly heard of them.

Please don't hesitate to go into more and more details

Cheers,

Nick

P.S. Am I correct when I assume that the source of all these information is the same book, that Michael mentioned

Persian orders 1808-1925 by P.C. Mulder // Ordenshistorisk Selskab, Copenhagen, 1990

Edited January 25, 2012 by JapanX

[James Hoard]

Thanks for posting this interesting addendum James.

I've got only one question.

Why all lion and sun orders with standing lion have green ribbon??? (excerpt one that have red ribbon and was shown to us by private collector)

At least all orders that we observe nowadays...

What are they - replacements? All of them?

Please don't hesitate to go into more and more details

Cheers,

Nick

P.S. Am I correct when I assume that the source of all these information is the same book, that Michael mentioned

Persian orders 1808-1925 by P.C. Mulder // Ordenshistorisk Selskab, Copenhagen, 1990

Nick,

The different colours for different grades/classes/ranks were only awarded with the insignia for Persian nationals.

While it may be true that most of the decorations that we see in the West come with a green ribbon, I cannot answer the question why. All I can say is that I have seen so many different types and shades of green that, one can only assume that the dealers have seen the word "green" in a refernce book and so that is what they use. The fourth class (even for foreigners) is supposed to be worn from a pin, not a ribbon. But I bet all of those out there with the dealers' have a green ribbon.

I have copies of the firmans for two of the reorganisations of the Lion and Sun and the institution and then reorganisation of the Nishan-i-Agdas. These would, I suppose, in a European context pass as "statutes" of orders but are actually very different. Quite confusing to read, with bits and pieces of text mixed up. Often, isssues written within the context of one decoration or class, but actually referring to another.

Going into detail will require writing a book!

Cheers,

James

[Markus]

Hello James,

Thanks so much for your contributions to understanding of this order. It is great to get reliable information on this complex and confusing order. Are your copies of the Firmans in original form with Persian script or translations? It is my understanding that the original Firmans had beautiful illustrated paintings as well. Could you possibly post a copy of Persian Firman script or illustrations just to get the flavor? Just a portion or close up would be great.

Markus

[James Hoard]

Hello James,

Thanks so much for your contributions to understanding of this order. It is great to get reliable information on this complex and confusing order. Are your copies of the Firmans in original form with Persian script or translations? It is my understanding that the original Firmans had beautiful illustrated paintings as well. Could you possibly post a copy of Persian Firman script or illustrations just to get the flavor? Just a portion or close up would be great.

Markus

Markus,

What I have is photocopies of the official translation into French. Not the original firmans.

Having said that, not all original firmans are illuminated or illustrated. A good many, the majority, are very simple handwritten letters although the paper is usually of good quality, the calligraphy superb and there is usually at least some decorative header or perhaps a border

Cheers,

James.

[Markus]

James,

Thanks for all your input. I suspect now that the original Firmans for Lion & Sun Orders are crumbling into oblivion some where in Iran. It is too bad that Iranian government dislikes all their royal history so much and choses not to preserve it.

This Firman I am posting is in the collection of His Highness the Aga Khan. It is a Royal order of Fath Ali Shah honoring Sir Harford Jones circa March 1809. The Persian script and art work are quite amazing.

Markus