Simple test for “military” division of Lion and Sun order

[JapanX]

While it may be true that most of the decorations that we see in the West come with a green ribbon, I cannot answer the question why. All I can say is that I have seen so many different types and shades of green that, one can only assume that the dealers have seen the word "green" in a refernce book and so that is what they use. The fourth class (even for foreigners) is supposed to be worn from a pin, not a ribbon. But I bet all of those out there with the dealers' have a green ribbon.

Sorry James, but this explanation "dilettante dealers replace all ribbons" could work in one, two or three cases, but not in 99% cases. And 99% of all orderswe see on the market with standing lion have green ribbons. And this ribbons are not new one.

As for different shades and colors - I think its a usual thing for order with 100+ years of history.

I suspect that between Firmans stated practice and actual awarding practice was a huge gap.

All sources (including nice article and a short note by late sir Wright) implicitly states that "we are not sure"

And they are all using these official "statues" as source of their information.

Cheers,

Nick

[JapanX]

Progress report

For some unknown reason foreigners (civil men and military men) got their orders with lying lion and on green ribbons.

Military persians got their orders with standing lions and civil with lying lions. Color of the ribbons for military personel varried with rank of recipient. The only problem is that we don`t observe these multi-color ribbon specimens (not to mentioned the quantity of orders with standing lion on plain green ribbon). We have "statutes" that couldn`t be confirmed by our current experience.

So our next stop - a group with lion and sun order for persian military and/or civil man. Well, I think the chances that we will see such group are pretty low...

In the next couple of days I will post some new observations.

Cheers,

Nick

[James Hoard]

Progress report

For some unknown reason foreigners (civil men and military men) got their orders with lying lion and on green ribbons.

Military persians got their orders with standing lions and civil with lying lions. Color of the ribbons for military personel varried with rank of recipient. The only problem is that we don`t observe these multi-color ribbon specimens (not to mentioned the quantity of orders with standing lion on plain green ribbon). We have "statutes" that couldn`t be confirmed by our current experience.

So our next stop - a group with lion and sun order for persian military and/or civil man. Well, I think the chances that we will see such group are pretty low...

In the next couple of days I will post some new observations.

Cheers,

Nick

Not quite.

We have plenty of contemporary photographic evidence in portraits and other photographs of people wearing these different coloured ribbons. We also have painted portraits in colour, though fewer in number.

See for examples:

http://iranfederal.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/khazal_1295-to-right.jpg

http://www.royalark.net/Persia/Mohammerah-khazal.jpg

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/255115/photo83.html

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/255115/photo87.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Brooklyn_Museum_-_Mohammad_%27Ali_Shah_with_Mirza_Mohammad_Ebrahim_Khan_the_Moavin_al-Dowleh_and_Company_One_of_274_Vintage_Photographs.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/AbbasMirza.gif

http://www.parstimes.com/images/amir_kabir_stamp.gif

http://darolqajar.com/wpimages/wp2e194d23_05.jpg

http://www.qajarpages.org/images/NezamiyehpanelSonsAbbasMirza.JPG

http://www.portalestoria.net/IMAGES%2059/QAJAR.gif

http://www.cultureofiran.com/images/pictures/46.jpg

http://storage.canalblog.com/05/45/119589/71767674_p.jpg

http://images.arcadja.com/ali_khan_ghulam-al_mulk_amin_al_sultan_atabeg_i_azam_~300~10000_20061011_1450512486_55.jpg

Some of these are incorrectly labelled as to the identities of the people depicted, but there is enough evidence in them for the purposes we are dealing with here.

Cheers,

James

[JapanX]

Hi James

I see some of this portraits before. When I said "we don't observe" I meant present days.

No doubts many of these noble men have multicolor ribbons ...

Just like it was prescribed by statute.

It could means that

1) everything was working right by the book for top-brass guys (and maybe for all others not so lucky guys, but for how long after introduction of this statute/regulation?)

2) painters knew the statute

3) every ribbon on orders with standing lion is replacement, if it is green (I just couldn't believe in this scenario)

What really puzzles me is that we don't see these ribbons on the market together with standing lions orders in higher classes.

Not to mention the lower classes with standing lion.

Real bummer that only lying lions are visible on portraits (actually only in one portrait) and we could treat at this as an indirect evidence that Persians get lying lions too (indirect - because I think this portrait was painted before 1842 (?) or am I wrong (?))

Thanks for creating this interesting portrait/photo compilation.

Best regards,

Nick

[James Hoard]

Hi James

I see some of this portraits before. When I said "we don't observe" I meant present days.

No doubts many of these noble men have multicolor ribbons ...

Just like it was prescribed by statute.

It could means that

1) everything was working right by the book for top-brass guys (and maybe for all others not so lucky guys, but for how long after introduction of this statute/regulation?)

2) painters knew the statute

3) every ribbon on orders with standing lion is replacement, if it is green (I just couldn't believe in this scenario)

What really puzzles me is that we don't see these ribbons on the market together with standing lions orders in higher classes.

Not to mention the lower classes with standing lion.

Real bummer that only lying lions are visible on portraits (actually only in one portrait) and we could treat at this as an indirect evidence that Persians get lying lions too (indirect - because I think this portrait http://storage.canal.../71767674_p.jpg was painted before 1842 (?) or am I wrong (?))

Thanks for creating this interesting portrait/photo compilation.

Best regards,

Nick

Nick,

The statutes are mid-nineteenth century and some of the pictures from the early twentieth century. So I guess, the followed the statutes as long as they were in place.

The picture that you highlight is post 1848 because that is a young Nadir ud-din Shah.

As for the green ribbon, I guess the conclusion must be that green was the ribbon colour for foreigners, whichever grade, military or civil. There is no specific mention of that in the statutes, but that is my guess.

Cheers,

James

[JapanX]

The statutes are mid-nineteenth century and some of the pictures from the early twentieth century. So I guess, the followed the statutes as long as they were in place.

The picture that you highlight is post 1848 because that is a young Nadir ud-din Shah.

Then this statute indeed was a practiced one Thanks for this info. If multicolor ribbons were in use (at least for higher classes of this order), then it will be reasonable to assume that military/civil (standing/lying) gradation was in actual use too and the only way to distinguish between "foreigner" order and "civil Persian division" order is the color of the ribbon (or civil Persian division had plain green ribbon too? any records?) or document. Sounds like "mission impossible"

As for the green ribbon, I guess the conclusion must be that green was the ribbon colour for foreigners, whichever grade, military or civil. There is no specific mention of that in the statutes, but that is my guess.

Completely agree James.

All attributed orders (or orders in attributed groups) that I saw had green ribbons.

Cheers,

Nick

[Mitya Ivanov]

Markus wrote: "This Firman I am posting is in the collection of His Highness the Aga Khan. It is a Royal order of Fath Ali Shah honoring Sir Harford Jones circa March 1809."

Dear Markus, this firman doesn't grants any order. It grants an honourable augmentation - purely heraldic (i.e. it grants a permission to Sir Harford Jones-Brydges to use Shah's coat-of-arms. So the Englishman included the emblems from heraldic achievement of Fath-Ali Shah into his own (baronet's) COA). As you know Sir Harford Jones-Brydges refused to recieve 'French' Order of the Sun and asked the Shah to grant him this augmentation instead.

[JapanX]

Markus wrote: "This Firman I am posting is in the collection of His Highness the Aga Khan. It is a Royal order of Fath Ali Shah honoring Sir Harford Jones circa March 1809."

Dear Markus, this firman doesn't grants any order. It grants an honourable augmentation - purely heraldic (i.e. it grants a permission to Sir Harford Jones-Brydges to use Shah's coat-of-arms. So the Englishman included the emblems from heraldic achievement of Fath-Ali Shah into his own (baronet's) COA). As you know Sir Harford Jones-Brydges refused to recieve 'French' Order of the Sun and asked the Shah to grant him this augmentation instead.

Thanks for translation and great work with these articles about persian orders in Heraldic_Spb!

Welcome to GMIC Mitya!

Best regards,

Nick

[Mitya Ivanov]

Thanks, dear Nick! Really wonderful place here - with people experienced in a very complicated problem of Persian orders and militaria. (As for me, sooner or later - maybe - I'll obtain a professional translator's help from somewhere to make English versions of my texts. Until then I hope to be helpful here in some other ways - like notes and remarks here).