Eric Stahlhut Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 here's one that i am not 100% certain of, as they have been heavily reproduced in the last few years. this one seems to have the commensurate aging, and has been very well made, with very sharp details and well-soldered pin. opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 here's the reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Hmmm...I was always under impression that these were collar tab badges, so why is this pin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 the dimensions are quite large (70mm long), so i doubt it would fit on a collar tab. somewhere, i saw these described as a 'leistungsabzeichen'. the collar tabs are smaller. perhaps the answer lies within info on reichswehr brigade 4? in any case, i remain sceptical towards the authenticity until i see a period foto of it being worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Yep, me too, never heard about this one as a breast badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 On 22/05/2012 at 00:02, Destruction said: Yep, me too, never heard about this one as a breast badge. Well.. It took me 6 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) The document is fantastic with the facsimile signature of Generalmajor Georg Friedrich Hugo Louis von der Lippe, commander of Reichswehr-Brigade 25 from June 1919 to May 1920. But, I don't believe the Deutsche Schutzdivision badge is genuine. Nor does it belong with the document. It's typical of the stamped fakes that "the Club" has been selling over the last 10 years or so. While the details are good, these badges are flatter than originals. Originals have a more domed wreath and hilt and the reverse stamping is deeper with sharper detail overall. if you compare the 2 oakleaves that cross the sword blade at the top, you'll see that on originals these are quite raised and appear to be angled down towards the blade on either side, top and bottom, while on the fakes they're flat and badly defined against the blade. The central medallion of the cross-guard on the fakes only has 2 dots. Originals have 4 dots. Badges that were sewn on the collar had the 2 lower dots drilled out. But, those with reverse prongs retained the 4 dots. The original finish is frosted silver with burnished highlights that tend to dull with age. Fakes either have no finish as in the case of the badge with the doc, or a dull, flat silver wash as in the better quality fake belonging to Eric Stahlhut at the top. Under no circumstances were these ever issued with a pinback. Originals of this collar badge have become harder to find as the market seems to be flooded with the fakes. The "Plakette" to which this award document refers is the blackened, bronzed zinc commemorative plaque (Erringerungsplakette) shown here. This plaque was proposed in October, 1919 after Reichswehr-Brigade 25 (formerly Deutsche Schutzdivision) merged with Reichswehr-Brigade 4 (formerly Freiwillige Landes-Schützen-Korps) and was awarded from December 1919 to December 1920 when Reichswehr-Brigade 4 was disbanded. Edited November 2, 2018 by bolewts58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Hi Brian, Thanx for your comments! Honestly said I was thinking about plakette as an option as I never took these badges seriously and thought it's a fantasy item based on collar badge design. But let's make research in full this time. First of all, as I understand the badge came with document from reliable sources, together with some photos. Second, it differs from known fakes from the "club" , here is one attached. And I think you're wrong about finish, I see the traces of silvering, same poor silvering as on plakette, by the way. Plakette is made of silvered (!) zinc so the finish is eaten by zinc as we see on 3rd Reich badges. One more question--do you (or anybody) have collar badge in hands? If yes, can you give me the size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) Yours and Eric's are both of the type sold by "the Club", as I bought one from them when they first started peddling them that was exactly the same with the safety pin. When I had it in hand, I knew immediately that it was fake. The second one you showed above is a poor cast of one of the fakes. Maybe "the Club" is selling these as well now. I'm sorry to be so dogmatic about this, but nothing is going to convince me that the one you show with the document is genuine or that this type of badge went with the document. It's illustrated on the document because the collar badge remained the symbol of Reichswehr-Brigade 25. Whether it came from reliable sources or not, this is a case of believe what the badge tells you, not the story. Genuine collar badges were quite large which is obvious when you see them in wear. The pair of badges I showed above are 70 mm long. As you can see in this photo the collar badges were actually larger than the oval sleeve badge (with two crossed rifles above two oakleaf sprigs). The Erringerungsplakette which I am 100% sure goes with your document came in some different finishes I've seen. But, all are zinc based. The one I used to own was almost black. I've seen them with a slightly black bronze finish or simply in oxidized zinc. Weitze has one for sale at the moment that's like this. I've never seen one in silvered zinc. I very rarely disagree with you and I respect you incredibly for your in-depth knowledge on Freikorps. But, in this case, I think you're mistaken. Edited November 2, 2018 by bolewts58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Hi Brian, I had 2 of these plakettes and both were silvered zinc. I insist I'm travelling right now and cant't provide pictures , here is another one from some forum. Silvered zinc with faded finish it is. Speaking about badge in question , I will have it for hand inspection in a week. I'd say, if it's really silvered zinc, it has a chance. Let's see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) Ok. I'll wait and see. Edited November 2, 2018 by bolewts58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Just found this image. Brian, you probably referred to this badge speaking about "club" fake ? Because this piece of crap is taken straight from ordensammler site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Destruction said: Just found this image. Brian, you probably referred to this badge speaking about "club" fake ? Because this piece of crap is taken straight from ordensammler site. I think it's the same, just newer. Anyway, the important thing is that document. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 1 minute ago, bolewts58 said: I think it's the same, just newer. Anyway, the important thing is that document. I love it. Yup! Irregardless of which badge it represents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Well, zinc it is, with faded silver finish, as I supposed. I'm not much into production but as far as I'm concerned it's impossible to made cast zinc counterpart badge, isn't it? Also this faded finish, eaten by base metal, as we see on WW2 items... So I believe this badge is original, probably produced/ordered at the same run when they did these plakette. No idea if document belongs to badge or plakette though, as I said previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted November 8, 2018 Author Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) would you mind posting measurement and weight? let's see how it matches to the example i have. p.s. also, perhaps the letter seems to reference two separate items: the aforementioned 'plakette' and a previously unreferenced 'abschiedszeichen' or going-away commemorative badge? (or does the wording of the letter describe the "going away gesture" of gifting the plaque)? also, the pin on the "club/ordenssammler" example appears to be larger. look how it extends past the wreath Edited November 8, 2018 by Eric Stahlhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) 'abschiedszeichen' in this case means more or less what you said in brackets: gesture/sign/token of farewell and IMO simply refers to what the Plakette represented - basically a "thank you for your service" commemorative. The document only refers to one award, which as I've stated is the zinc plaque. At the risk of being too dogmatic, I also stand by my opinion that all the badges except the pair I posted are fake. I no longer have those as I traded them a long time ago for something rarer. I believe Weitze currently has the same pair for sale. I've just bought another single. When it arrives, I'll attempt to weigh it. Although I'm not sure how accurate my scale is. Edited November 9, 2018 by bolewts58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Hey Brian, Can you explain why do you think it's fake? From production point of view? I mean, the badge is die stamped from zinc, this means it was produced in quantities. If it's fake, where are all other badges? We do not see them on sale , why? Also, can you show any zinc based fake with finish faded like this? If you will put it into aggressive environment to make it quick, you will get it corroded. Finish like this can only be made by aging when zinc is "eating" the finish. Eric, I do not want to make fakers life easier, will check measurements and contact you via PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Destruction said: Hey Brian, Can you explain why do you think it's fake? From production point of view? I mean, the badge is die stamped from zinc, this means it was produced in quantities. If it's fake, where are all other badges? We do not see them on sale , why? Also, can you show any zinc based fake with finish faded like this? If you will put it into aggressive environment to make it quick, you will get it corroded. Finish like this can only be made by aging when zinc is "eating" the finish. 3 The badges like yours and Eric's that I've seen and handled are all die-struck: some from zinc, some from tombac, some from some sort of white metal. It's the details which I have already described above which I don't like. But one detail I forgot to mention is that the sword hilt on originals is longer and tapers more gradually down to the ball tip. On yours, Eric's and the other two you posted, the hilt is fatter and shorter. The badges that the Club first sold in the mid-2000s were just like yours and Eric's. It's surprising that the ones they are selling now are of significantly poorer quality. But, that's also true of a lot of the other stuff they sell. The quality has gotten worse. IMO, there's no reason that this badge would have ever been made with a pin. They certainly weren't worn as a collar badge that way. There are two types: either with prongs or drilled holes for sewing (2 in the lower crossguard and 1 in the tip of the sword). They were likely only produced once and both came from the same die - a different die than the one your badge comes from. In 50 years of collecting Freikorps, I have never heard of them being struck again from another die or issued as any sort of commemorative. So, I guess at this stage, we're going to have to agree to disagree unless a photo shows up with the badge being worn as a pinback that matches yours. In any case, I would really like to own that document. It's very cool. Edited November 10, 2018 by bolewts58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 link to another good thread http://gmic.co.uk/topic/61375-new-schutzdivision-photo/?tab=comments#comment-581215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Ehhh Brian, what I'm trying to tell is that this badge is OLD. It's absolutely impossible that is was made 10-20 years ago, ask any 3rd Reich collectors how much time needed for zinc to dissolve silvering like this. Can you show me more badges like this on sale? Made of zinc and with very same details? Also, zinc is the last material I'd use for any kind of copies. It's very brittle and has very narrow temperature range for die-struck. Germans used it for production just because it was cheap and available. If this badge is real, in this version it definitely was not worn as collar. It should be a commemorative badge and worn as such on a breast. And... it's Freikorps and has no connection with how long you're collecting, sorry. There are lots of undiscovered things in this area, I think you will agree. Did you ever seen Kreuzberg cross f.e, before it appeared last year? Even VerKuilen Ager never seen it as he told me. So yes, let's wait for some additional facts/pictures/groups to make it evident or unreal, but thus far it has a good chances IMO. On 02/11/2018 at 15:00, Destruction said: Yup! Irregardless of which badge it represents. After studying this in deep, looks like I can tell which badge this document represents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 (edited) Ok. I surrender. I'm always open to some new information. There are lots of things Verkuilen didn't know as he was active at a time when there was a lot less information available. I don't think the document is for this medal. This is "Die Bewährungsmedaille", not the Erinnerungsplakette. I still think the most likely candidate is the large zinc table plaque. Edited November 10, 2018 by bolewts58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, bolewts58 said: Ok. I surrender. I'm always open to some new information. There are lots of things Verkuilen didn't know as he was active at a time when there was a lot less information available. I don't think the document is for this medal. This is "Die Bewährungsmedaille", not the Plakette. Look, first of all the plakette is dated 1919-1920 (!), while in document it's clearly stated: december 1919. Deutsche Schutzdivision was formed in January 1919 in Zossen from 31. Infanterie-Division and already in June 19 became Reichswehr-Brigade 25. Exactly as in document (31.Division/Schutzdivision/Reichswehr-Brigade 25), and nothing to do with Landesschützenkorps which mentioned on plakette ( used to form Reichswehr-Brigade 4 ). I can not exclude that plakette was awarded to members of Deutsche Schutzdivision, but I really doubt this document belongs to it. What do you think? One more thing. For example, Dr. Klietmann in his article calls Erinnerungszeichen der Deutschen Legion as "plakette" as well. May I ask our German friends here if this word can be used for badges ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 The Erinnerungsplakette was awarded to both Deutsche Schutzdivision and Landesschützenkorps because they both joined together when Reichswehr-Brigade 25 merged into Reichswehr-Brigade 4 in October 1919. That's when the Plakette was proposed and they began to issue it starting in November or December 1919. I think they put the dates 1919 1920 anticipating it would be awarded throughout the coming year. But, go ahead and ask if the medal can be called a Plakette. I highly doubt it. Plakette as far as I know means plaque and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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