The Royal Victorian Order, identification of the recipient

[Andrew Harris]

Hello, guys.

Is it possible to identify the name of this major? Where I can find the list of the foreign recipients of this order? Is it MVO class?

Greetings, Rostyslav.

[Andrew Harris]

Medal bar closer:

[Paul L Murphy]

It could be the LVO since it appears to be enamelled. The MVO is frosted silver.

[Andrew Harris]

It could be the LVO since it appears to be enamelled. The MVO is frosted silver.

I also heard an opinion that it could be a "private issue" cross. Is it possible?

Edited June 26, 2012 by Andrew Harris

[Mervyn Mitton]

I agree with Paul - probably a Lieutenant's breast badge of the Order. The Crown is present over the cypher and

I am not sure how it could be a 'private issue'. The probability is that he served the Royal Family in some capacity -

perhaps as an aide on an overseas visit - or, perhaps he was staioned in Britain ?

He has 2nd WW awards - however, are there any that would indicate service from an earier period ?

[dmiller8]

I agree with Paul - probably a Lieutenant's breast badge of the Order. The Crown is present over the cypher and

I am not sure how it could be a 'private issue'. The probability is that he served the Royal Family in some capacity -

perhaps as an aide on an overseas visit - or, perhaps he was staioned in Britain ?

He has 2nd WW awards - however, are there any that would indicate service from an earier period ?

From what I see, all his awards date to WW1, except for the Hindenburg Cross from 1934. I read in the biography of Edward, Duke of Windsor, that he paid a visit to Adolf Hitler in 1937(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII). It is just my speculation, but this officer may have helped facilitate the Duke's visit and been suitably rewarded with a Royal Victorian Order from King George VI. His work might not have been recognized by his own government,so he must have received permission to add it to his medal bar.

[dmiller8]

It could be the LVO since it appears to be enamelled. The MVO is frosted silver.

Prior to 1984, the two grades of the Royal Victorian Order below Commander were known as Member, Fourth Class and Member, Fifth Class. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order ). One would have to see a listing of MVO awarded to foreign recipients prior to 1984. Checking listings around the time of the Duke of Windsor's 1937 visit might get the desired results.

[paul wood]

I have conclusively discovered that there were NO inter-war awards of the Royal Victorian Order to Germans. However let us look at the picture the subject is certainly not in his first flush of youth and could quite likely be in his 50's. The pictue looks as though it is pre-WWII. Also I notice that after his EK he is wearing the Order of Hohenzollern (possibly the Princeley Order). Now look in the pre-war awards there is one which sticks out. Prince of Wales visit to Sigmaringen on the marriage of King Manoel of Portugal, September 1913, where and MVO 4th class was awarded to Captain Fritz Wehr, Baron von Schonau, 8th Gendarmerie Brigade. He would have been late twenties -early thirties at the time which would fit in with the time scale of the photo.

All the best,

Paul

[Ulsterman]

Hmmm...I seem to recall an Allgemeine SS officer with the RVO. Any chance its him wearing his a la suite uniform?

[Andrew Harris]

Thanks you all for the answers, guys!

Hmmm...I seem to recall an Allgemeine SS officer with the RVO. Any chance its him wearing his a la suite uniform?

IMO, no. He is not an Algemeine ϟϟ officer. This major is from the XII military district. But, it could be a very little chance that he was transfered to the ϟϟ. Do you have any photo of the officer that you saw?

I have conclusively discovered that there were NO inter-war awards of the Royal Victorian Order to Germans. However let us look at the picture the subject is certainly not in his first flush of youth and could quite likely be in his 50's. The pictue looks as though it is pre-WWII. Also I notice that after his EK he is wearing the Order of Hohenzollern (possibly the Princeley Order). Now look in the pre-war awards there is one which sticks out. Prince of Wales visit to Sigmaringen on the marriage of King Manoel of Portugal, September 1913, where and MVO 4th class was awarded to Captain Fritz Wehr, Baron von Schonau, 8th Gendarmerie Brigade. He would have been late twenties -early thirties at the time which would fit in with the time scale of the photo.

This is the only possible variant?

Rostyslav.

[dmiller8]

Rostyslav wrote: "This is the only possible variant?"

Realizing that I may be out of my depth here, the Royal Victorian Order, being a personal gift of the Sovereign, is probably a highly controlled item regarding the quality of manufacture. A "variant", which I would take to mean like a privately purchased insignia, would not be authorized if it gave the impression that it was a higher class than the one officially presented. So it would not be permitted have embellishments to "upgrade" its appearance over a standard presentation insignia.

[James Hoard]

Rostyslav wrote: "This is the only possible variant?"

Realizing that I may be out of my depth here, the Royal Victorian Order, being a personal gift of the Sovereign, is probably a highly controlled item regarding the quality of manufacture. A "variant", which I would take to mean like a privately purchased insignia, would not be authorized if it gave the impression that it was a higher class than the one officially presented. So it would not be permitted have embellishments to "upgrade" its appearance over a standard presentation insignia.

I have conclusively discovered that there were NO inter-war awards of the Royal Victorian Order to Germans. However let us look at the picture the subject is certainly not in his first flush of youth and could quite likely be in his 50's. The pictue looks as though it is pre-WWII. Also I notice that after his EK he is wearing the Order of Hohenzollern (possibly the Princeley Order). Now look in the pre-war awards there is one which sticks out. Prince of Wales visit to Sigmaringen on the marriage of King Manoel of Portugal, September 1913, where and MVO 4th class was awarded to Captain Fritz Wehr, Baron von Schonau, 8th Gendarmerie Brigade. He would have been late twenties -early thirties at the time which would fit in with the time scale of the photo.

All the best,

Paul

Paul,

This isn't entirely correct. The Duke of Coburg was granted special permission to resume wearing his GCVO in 1932. Of course the poor fellow then blotted his copybook a second time and was stripped of the award again in 1940.

Baron von Frankenstien, the former Austrian Ambassador, was made Honorary GCVO immediately after his post dissappeared in 1937 and he went to take leave of King George VI. Technically, he was by then a German subject. He became a British Subject in 1938 and was then transformed into Sir George Frankenstein.

All enemy subjects were stripped of their British awards in WWI and WWW II, so no German was officially entitled to wear them without a new special permission.

The decoration in the picture is quite obviously a privately made version. The central medallion should be closer to round, not such a vertically elongated oval. The motto should be gold on a dark blue enamel border, rather than white. Lastly, the Honorary MVO 4th class, unlike the version for British Subjects, came with a ribbon rosette to distinguish it from the 5th class.

Cheers

James Hoard

[Komtur]

Eduard Bornhausen

RVO5 15th of June 1907 as Lieutenant and Adjutant Infantery Regiment von Goeben No. 28 on the occasion of unveiling of statue of field marshal teh Duke of Cambridge in London.

(Risk, Pownall, Stanley and Tamplin: Roayl Service Vol. II, p. 228)

[Andrew Harris]

On 31/05/2019 at 17:04, Komtur said:

Eduard Bornhausen

RVO5 15th of June 1907 as Lieutenant and Adjutant Infantery Regiment von Goeben No. 28 on the occasion of unveiling of statue of field marshal teh Duke of Cambridge in London.

(Risk, Pownall, Stanley and Tamplin: Roayl Service Vol. II, p. 228)

Thank you VERY much for this information!!! Found his other photos in the SS uniform on WAF, it's definitely him.