TacHel Posted October 10, 2012 Author Posted October 10, 2012 For $150? In this case we are talking about very special friend They've jumped around from $75 to $500 for no good reason whatsoever save the greed and/or stupidity of some sellers and buyers. The market simply isn't there, and taking into account how many have been awarded and are available for sale out there, these multi hundred dollar prices are nonsensical.
JapanX Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) They've jumped around from $75 to $500 for no good reason whatsoever save the greed and/or stupidity of some sellers and buyers. The market simply isn't there, and taking into account how many have been awarded and are available for sale out there, these multi hundred dollar prices are nonsensical. Frank, where you get this info?!? Who told you about these strange prices? The lowerest price I've ever saw was $285 for piece with 5-digit number without doc. There are pretty good reasons for price fluctuations. They are 1) to whom and for what this or that order was awarded 2) doc and/or additional doc's 3) number of the order 4) type of the mint mark 5) posthumous/non-posthumous awarding etc. Price of course didn't fluctuate in the diapason of +/- 400% It is more or less stable. Around $300/$400 and in downside trend (for obvious reasons). And it's not the number of orders issued that counts - it's the number of cavaliers that actually ready to sell their orders that really counts And of course there is market for RF awards in RF P.S. You are right about one thing - the price for fake Courage is quite stable P.P.S. There is a huge difference between the market for ministerial awards and the market for actual awards The demand for actual awards is out there, although not as strong (to put it very mildly) as demand for soviets orders and medals. Edited October 10, 2012 by JapanX
TacHel Posted October 10, 2012 Author Posted October 10, 2012 All that you say above is true and common knowledge for ODMs in any country. I've been following Russian and Ukrainian auction and dealer web sites for well over 10 years, the Russians undervalue Ukrainian awards, the Ukrainians undervalue Russian awards... Although harder to find nowadays, lower prices weren't that rare then. As for a market, that's the prob, it is solely in Russia proper when dealing with State Awards (read again, I was quite clear about state, not ministerial), hence my statement, the market simply isn't there... The statement was, and must be taken in comparison with other ODM markets, Soviet or otherwise, in other words, a World market. Russian law prohibits this, the prices should stagnate very quickly has there isn't much chance of this changing in the near future. I've seen so many dealers asking for a high price for a medal stating it was the market price. If the darn thing isn't selling, then it isn't the market price. I wanted to purchase 2 Canadian coronation medals a few weeks ago at a gun show, they were $125 each, the seller said that's what they were worth because that's the price everybody was asking for them. I replied: and nobody's selling any of them... And I walked away with the schmuck scratching his head.
JapanX Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) All that you say above is true and common knowledge for ODMs in any country. I've been following Russian and Ukrainian auction and dealer web sites for well over 10 years, the Russians undervalue Ukrainian awards, the Ukrainians undervalue Russian awards... Although harder to find nowadays, lower prices weren't that rare then. 10 years ago there was completely defferent market with completely different prices ... 2002-2008 changed everything ... Russian law prohibits this, the prices should stagnate very quickly has there isn't much chance of this changing in the near future. Strongly disagree The harder the restrictions - the higher the prices and vise versa ... That's why soviet "stuff" costs less even at Ukrainian market ;) Edited October 10, 2012 by JapanX
TacHel Posted October 10, 2012 Author Posted October 10, 2012 Strongly disagree The harder the restrictions - the higher the prices and vise versa ... That's why soviet phaleristiks costs less even at Ukrainian market Restrictions? What restrictions? I'm talking about prices within Russia. Outside of Russia, sure, it's illegal to export them and they don't come up very often, outside of Russia the prices would be higher.
JapanX Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I've seen so many dealers asking for a high price for a medal stating it was the market price. I wasn't talking about "asking prices", but about actual prices at which the deals are actually sealed ;)
JapanX Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Restrictions? What restrictions? I'm talking about prices within Russia. Outside of Russia, sure, it's illegal to export them and they don't come up very often, outside of Russia the prices would be higher. Frank, actually you can go to jail for selling and buying RF or Soviet awards inside Russia
TacHel Posted October 10, 2012 Author Posted October 10, 2012 Frank, actually you can go to jail for selling and buying RF or Soviet awards inside Russia I thought the limitations were strictly on export... No?? Then I know 4 or 5 dozen collectors who better pray the militia doesn't start logging onto the faleristics forums.
JapanX Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Check this out Frank (practically at the bottom of the page) http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Правовое_регулирование_сферы_государственных_наград_России#.D0.92.D1.8B.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B7_.D0.B3.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.83.D0.B4.D0.B0.D1.80.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8B.D1.85_.D0.BD.D0.B0.D0.B3.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B4_.D0.B7.D0.B0_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.B4.D0.B5.D0.BB.D1.8B_.D0.A0.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.81.D0.B8.D0.B8 Up to 1 year in prison for selling or buying RF or USSR awards ... Edited October 10, 2012 by JapanX
TacHel Posted October 11, 2012 Author Posted October 11, 2012 Er... Bud... Your link must've been in cyrillic because it leads to a page on the ampersand... :whistle:
Lukasz Gaszewski Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Order of Lenin = St Andrew ... I originally did not intend to enter the discussion, still in general perception it is the Order "For Merit to the Fartheland" rather than the Order of St. Andrew that is perceived as the equivalent of the Order of Lenin. Note that the Order of Lenin could be awarded multiple times (with the record holders with 12 and 11 awards respectively), whereas the Order for Merit is a four-class award, which can be bestowed once in each class. Thus the fourth class is seen as the counterpart of the Order of Lenin awarded for the first time, the third class as the OL awarded for the 2nd time and so on. The Order for Merit was thought as a strange melange of the imperial Order of St. Alexander Nevsky (insignia) and of St. Vladimir (4-class division and scope of merit). If the comparison of the Order of St. Andrew to any Soviet award ever made sense, I would vote for the gold star of the Hero of Socialist Labour , with the notable difference that St. Andrew can be awarded to other countries' nationals (usually heads of state). The Order of St. George is a different category, as it is a combat award, conferred for acts of valour or commanding military units. I would compare it therefore to the combined British Order of the Bath and DSO.
JapanX Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Er... Bud... Your link must've been in cyrillic because it leads to a page on the ampersand... Better? :)
JapanX Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 And looks like you were talking about this restriction ;)
JapanX Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Note that the Order of Lenin could be awarded multiple times (with the record holders with 12 and 11 awards respectively), whereas the Order for Merit is a four-class award, which can be bestowed once in each class. Thus the fourth class is seen as the counterpart of the Order of Lenin awarded for the first time, the third class as the OL awarded for the 2nd time and so on. Hmmm... I don`t know about that Lukazs You see 4th and 3rd class are not that prestigious as order of Lenin was. Actually they very often award 1st class (in defiance of statute) as 1st award.. This happen especially often in case of bigwig`s ... If the comparison of the Order of St. Andrew to any Soviet award ever made sense, I would vote for the gold star of the Hero of Socialist Labour , with the notable difference that St. Andrew can be awarded to other countries' nationals (usually heads of state). Quite unexpected comparison :)
TacHel Posted October 11, 2012 Author Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) I completely agree with JapanX here, the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland" 3rd and 4th classes are pretty common. Personally, I'd compare them for civilians to the Soviet Order of Labour Glory with the 2 higher classes comparing to the Order of the Badge of Honour and the Order of the Red Banner of Labour. For the military, I'd compare them to the 3 classes of the Order "For Service to the Homeland in the Armed Forces of the USSR. Matter of fact Lukazs, the total lack of anything equivalent or close to "Hero of Socialist Labour" has raised requests from labour unions and groups in Russia for the establishment of a similar decoration in the same manner as "Hero of the Russian Federation" was created. As for St Andrew versus Lenin, take away the awards of the Order of Lenin made during the war or for long service (this was dumb!), the number of recipients goes down drastically. I honestly can't think of another Soviet award coming close to the Order of St Andrew. GRANTED, the original intent of the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland was to replace a multitude of Soviet awards and its statute was, and still is an amalgam of those past ODMs; but the establishments of both the Order of St Andrew and St George have relegated it to much lower status and prestige. JapanX, what do you think of the following: -The Order of St Andrew replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 2nd class. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 3rd and 4th class should've disapeared considering re establishment of the Order of Alexander Nevsky. -The Order of St George replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class with swords. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class with swords replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 2nd class with swords. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 3rd and 4th class with swords should've disapeared considering the existence of the Order "For Military Merit". Edited October 11, 2012 by TacHel
Lukasz Gaszewski Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 JapanX and Frank: I do agree that the prestige of the Order for Merit, especially in the lower classes is not as big as that of the Order of Lenin had. Yet, if we assume that the Order of Lenin was the equivalent of the Order for Merit 1st Class (not to mention that of St. Andrew), how should we treat the second, third, fourth and further awards? While comparing the possible equivalence of particular orders I had a look at the statistics of awards. The results are as follows (with Wiki as the source): Order of Lenin: 431,418 awards (incl. multiple ones) in 61 years (1930-1991) gives ca. 7072 awards per year. Order for Merit 4th class: over 3000 awards in 18 years (1994-2012) gives ca. 167 awards per year. Order for Merit - all classes (if we consider upper classes as multiple awards): 3930 awards in 18 years gives ca. 218 awards per year. Note that when established in 1994 the Order of Merit was the country's top order. As we can see, the Order for Merit is awarded much less frequently than the Order of Lenin was. I realize the comparison is not this simple as there are many factors that are difficult to compare. I just wanted to give a hint. What regards HSL and Order of St. Andrew: Gold star of the Hero of Socialist Labour: 20,812 awards in 53 years (1938-1991) gives ca. 393 awards per year. Order of St. Andrew: 15 awards in 14 years (1938-1991) gives ca. 1 awards per year (actually much less that the gold star of HSL).
TacHel Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 I wasn't comparing HSl to the Order of St Andrew. Like I said, there are groups requesting a modern equivalent to the HSL exactly because all agree that St Andrew isn't the same.
JapanX Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 JapanX, what do you think of the following: -The Order of St Andrew replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 2nd class. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 3rd and 4th class should've disapeared considering re establishment of the Order of Alexander Nevsky. -The Order of St George replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class with swords. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 1st class with swords replaced the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 2nd class with swords. -The Order "For Merit to the Fatherland 3rd and 4th class with swords should've disapeared considering the existence of the Order "For Military Merit". Frank I'll be frank with you I think every comparison between soviet system and RF system will be too artificial if possible at all. RF system is very eclectic and thoughtless mix of USSR and Imperial Russia systems. Your comparison is ok, but ... I feel that St. Andrew is not "in the system" ... This eccentric and purpusless award was created in 1998 by eccentric and purpusless alco-president ... That's why it is impossible to find any equivalent of this order in the soviet awarding system... Only God almighty knows how they decide today who and when will get this chain... Looks like when St.Andrew and St.George were reinstating the existence of "all-purpose general order" - "for merit to the fatherland" was simply ignored ...
JapanX Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 Order of Lenin: 431,418 awards (incl. multiple ones) in 61 years (1930-1991) gives ca. 7072 awards per year. Order for Merit 4th class: over 3000 awards in 18 years (1994-2012) gives ca. 167 awards per year. Order for Merit - all classes (if we consider upper classes as multiple awards): 3930 awards in 18 years gives ca. 218 awards per year. As we can see, the Order for Merit is awarded much less frequently than the Order of Lenin was. I realize the comparison is not this simple as there are many factors that are difficult to compare. I just wanted to give a hint. Dear Lukasz, you are forgetting that before 1941 order of Lenin was very very prestigious award (about 6500 awardings) During the GPW about 41 000 awarding were made. Still highly prestigious award! Only after the war they "diluted" prestige of this order. In the last 40 years of existence os USSR it was issued more than 360 000 times. Regards, Nick
TacHel Posted October 13, 2012 Author Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) IMHO, the Order of Lenin should've been as or almost as rare as the Order of St Andrew had it not been relegated to a long service award, to an automatic award with the Gold Stars, or as a military bravery and leadership award during WW2. Its original intent was quite similar to St Andrew. And I still maitain that with the reestablishments of the Orders of St Andrew, of St George and of Alexander Nevsky, that the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland" has no true reason for being anymore... It was a catch all award meant to be a modern Russian Order before there was intent to restore former Imperial Orders. Edited October 13, 2012 by TacHel
JapanX Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 IMHO, the Order of Lenin should've been as or almost as rare as the Order of St Andrew had it not been relegated to a long service award, to an automatic award with the Gold Stars, or as a military bravery and leadership award during WW2. Its original intent was quite similar to "original intent [of order of Lenin] was quite similar to St Andrew?! Is that really so? Let`s examine the statute`s Excerpt from 1892 statute for St Andrew So NO exact merits ... Only monarchical goodwill
JapanX Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Order of Lenin statute More or less vague description of merits...
JapanX Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Modern order of St Andrew ... Exeptional merits ... Go figure ...
JapanX Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Numbers of awards Imperial St Andrew around 1100 Order of Lenin around 431 418 Modern order of St Andrew 15 Looks like the only common feature they have is the word "highest"... These are completely different orders with completely different (or undescribed ) purposes that was created in different countries I think that is the real reasons behind such drastic difference in numbers ... Edited October 15, 2012 by JapanX
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