Imperial Russia Need help identifying cockade and other Russo-Japanese medal

[SovietRussiaSam]

Hey everybody this is my first post here. A little background history into what I'm posting: I'm currently 16 years old, born in Moscow and moved to USA in 2000, and have been passed down a large collection of medals and 'pins' from my Grandfather. At the same time, my Grandmother on the other side of my family passed me down her father's war medal collection. Her father was actually a general in the Soviet and Russian Army from 1899 - 1945. He served in Russo-Jap war of 1904-5, WWI, Civil War, Winter War, and WWII. While he was a general, he was actually a horse veteran and only saw combat action when there was no alternative. Regardless, I have been able to identify most of the large collections I have received, yet I am unable to recognize this cockade and a Japanese war medal.

Cockade (I'm limited in uploading through the site):

Front:

Back:

Back without screw-on:

Now I understand this is the Imperial Russia section, however, I don't want to create a separate thread for my other question. From what I understand on this medal, my great-grandfather picked it off of a dead Japanese soldier in either the Russo-Japanese war or WWII. I also know that the case is not meant for the medal, it was meant for another medal. I believe the case was meant for the Order of the Rising Sun.

Case closed:

Case opened:

Medal front:

Medal back:

Thanks for the help!

[JapanX]

As for the second medal - it is so called "National Foundation Commemorative Medal" from Manchukuo. Probably it was established on March 1, 1933 by Edict No. 11.
The kanji on the obverse read "National Foundation Commemorative, Ta Tung1 [1932]
March."
The box is from 8th class Manchukuo Order of Auspicious Clouds.

Cheers,

Nick

Edited January 28, 2013 by JapanX

[SovietRussiaSam]

Thanks for the insight, JapanX. Could you please reference me to links regarding this medal further? Also, what price range does it run in. Any ideas on the cockade?

[JapanX]

Thanks for the insight, JapanX. Could you please reference me to links regarding this medal further? Also, what price range does it run in. Any ideas on the cockade?

Links regarding this medal - http://imperialjapanmedalsandbadges.com/mannatfouncom.html

The price range for this medal is between $450 and $2000.

As for cockade - this is not cockade - this is badge

[SovietRussiaSam]

Thanks again, JapanX.

Regarding the cockade/badge - I asked my grandmother (it was her fathers) and she said that it was definately a cockade that was worn on her fathers general-major hat.

Also, please check your PM.

:]

[JapanX]

I asked my grandmother (it was her fathers) and she said that it was definately a cockade that was worn on her fathers general-major hat.

Yep, it looks like typical general-major cockade

[SovietRussiaSam]

Hi, sorry for the 2.5 year bump, but I felt that creating a new thread would be redundant.

 

I still don't have any information on the cockade, any insight into what it is? Thanks 

[Mathomhaus]

Please permit me to make a few observations about your erstwhile cockade.

The design is that of graduation badges from a specific category of Imperial Russian university or academy. I have gone through all of my references and I cannot locate a badge with a similar monogram affixed to its base, so I am unable to say what academic institution it is supposed to represent. I can tell you that even if your ancestor chose to wear it on a hat, what you have started out as a badge he would have been expected to wear on the right breast of his uniform coat (that is if it is over, say, 40/50mm+ in height). If it is only about 25mm in height, it started almost certainly out as a lapel pin that he initially wore on his lapel when he was wearing a civilian coat (probably when traveling outside of Russia; a lot of officers were like Nicholas II and never wore civvies when inside Russia).

Please understand that I am not questioning your family tradition. It's just that while there were a few imperial cockades that were not simply composed of two or three "coincentric" ovals, the more complex ones usually had a couple of staple-like tines on the reverse so they could be permanently attached to a cap band.

You should not complain: if it is a graduation badge and you can one day identify what institution awarded it, it will have a value geometrically larger than any cap badge could ever have!

Regards

 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Mathomhaus

[paul wood]

The badge is a Veterinarians badge a variety of Patrikeev, Bodjnovich 1.1.40

Paul

[Mathomhaus]

AhHa! Thanks. Not the first time I've missed something going through Patrikeev. I had even looked through Werlich!  

Rather than chalk this one up to age, I should probably face the fact that trying to conduct late night research while periodically refilling a tumbler of Stoli Cranberi is not a brilliant idea on my part!

Regards

Edited May 29, 2015 by Mathomhaus

[paul wood]

I wouldn't say that. I find that a couple of Wray and Nephews can revitalise my identifying powers.

Paul

 

[SovietRussiaSam]

The badge is a Veterinarians badge a variety of Patrikeev, Bodjnovich 1.1.40

Paul

Thanks so much to the both of you for helping me found out more information! The veterinarian link makes sense as my great-grandfather was officially "Major-General of Veterinary Service". Here are some facts about him. Here's some more in depth information on him with all of his medals (it's in Russian). If it wouldn't be too much to ask for, could you link me to some pages where I could read about this badge/cockade? The only reason I think it's a cockade is due to the size. It's height is similar to the span from the tip of my thumb to the tip of my index finger and its width is about the same width as in iPhone. Sorry for the vague measurements, but it's back at home and I'm in college so I'm unable to accurately measure it.

​

AhHa! Thanks. Not the first time I've missed something going through Patrikeev. I had even looked through Werlich!  

Rather than chalk this one up to age, I should probably face the fact that trying to conduct late night research while periodically refilling a tumbler of Stoli Cranberi is not a brilliant idea on my part!

Regards

No worries! Thanks for the information! 

​

[Mathomhaus]

Glad to be of help. I'm off on holiday right now and cannot immediately get to my books.

Most publications about Imperial Russian badges and militaria are out of print. They have limited print runs and are almost immediately bought up by collectors; I do not know what the situation may be in Russian libraries, but I'm willing to bet that no libraries in North America will have copies of the  main "badge" books -- which were written by Patrikeev & Bodjnovich (three volume set) and by Robert Werlich (one volume, different printings; also written "before the wall came down" and not always as accurate or comprehensive as P&B). Not to be discouraging, but even if you do find any of these books, the most they will provide you is confirmation of the name of the school that awarded the badge and the date that it was created/authorized. I'm guessing that your best chance to find helpful/interesting information about the academy your Grampa attended will be if it had an existence well into the Soviet period.

Draw some comfort from the fact that you are not the first person to be frustrated when trying to research militaria. I have a jetton (small badge on a chain worn suspended from a uniform button) that went to men in an Imperial Russian railway engineer institute (Paul: #176 in Ivanov) . Part of the design is a precise copy of the same frog that appears on the famous British-made "Frog Service" china of Catherine the Great. My pet theory is that at one point the Institute was located in the former palace where the Frog Service was originally used but I'll probably never confirm it...

Good luck with your research!

Regards

[JapanX]

I asked my grandmother (it was her fathers) and she said that it was definately a cockade that was worn on her fathers general-major hat.

 I was under the impression  that 2,5 years ago we firmly established that this is cockade

[JapanX]

The badge is a Veterinarians badge a variety of Patrikeev, Bodjnovich 1.1.40

Paul

This is not a variation.

This is simply a badge for veterinarian medic.

Letters ВВ = Ветеринарный врач

Established on 07.11.1897

Issued to graduates of Veterinarian institute.

 

[Mathomhaus]

The use of emojis / emoticons in posts sometimes confuses me. For example, I have no idea if your black cat is supposed to mean anything. It's sort of like looking at all of the charms soldered to the front of one of my cigarette cases - what are most of them supposed to mean? Elephants = good luck, da?

Two and a half years ago, I really thought that your placement of an emoticon at the end of your statement was a subtle way you were indicating that you had doubts about whether the badge in question was actually a cockade.

Regards

Edited June 3, 2015 by Mathomhaus

[paul wood]

Nick what I meant by variety is that is of a slightly different style to the piece illustrated in P&B.

Paul

[JapanX]

Two and a half years ago, I really thought that your placement of an emoticon at the end of your statement was a subtle way you were indicating that you had doubts about whether the badge in question was actually a cockade

 

It was a subtle way to indicate something else  

​

 

Yep, it looks like typical general-major cockade 

 

Edited June 3, 2015 by JapanX

[Mathomhaus]