Yugoslavia Purchasing St Sava order tips.

[Rogi]

Hi everyone,

I've been browsing the forums the last couple days and making a bit of posts but I don't see any concrete information for the St Sava order. I've always loved the award and since my family originated in Yugoslavia (we dont live there any longer but I was born in what is now Croatia) I'd like to purchase one of these. I usually like to do as much research as possible on awards before making a comitment to purchase, but there seems to be a lot of descrepancy on prices of these awards I know it boils down to a couple factors, first the grades ranging from 1st to 5th of the award.

Second the maker and pattern, I know there are a couple variations and I've been able to find a link to the "Serbian and Yugoslavian Orders and Decorations" book where it lists the various Icons of Saint Sava on the award I can't find any more information apart from that.

I'd like to know, what are the diffrences in pattern and how that effects value?

What maker makes the best quality Awards?

Are the awards plated, gilded, or pure silver/gold and if there are mixed ones (since I see a lot of gilded silver 5th classes etc I'd like to know where the line from pure to gilded is drawn in what class.

For someone starting to collect this award, which Class, pattern, type and maker would you recomend?

I'm not up to spending 1k, but I could see spending 400 or maybe even 500 on an amazing award I'm currently looking at the entry level prices for them and I just want to know why theres a small diffrence in price from 300 to 375 on some of the orders, since some 300 ones look better than the more expensive variants, I'm currently looking at all the 4th and 5th classes on the site emedals, I've seen it referenced here a lot but I have to ask, has anyone purchased from them ? Do they have a good reputation, they seem to have a lot of stock in orders and medals but I don't want to purchase and then end up seeing it is a fake. I want to make sure before comiting to any purchase, so I'll probobly end up posting here my questions in regards to the order.

Thank you all for any help,

Hvala i pozdrav,

Igor

[paul wood]

Igor,

There are three main types of of the Order of St Sava.

First. Obrenovich type 1883-1903 with red robed saint and Milan I monogram on reverse

Second 1903-14 red robes and and 1883 on reverse

Third post 1914 green robas and 1883 on reverse.

The Third type is by far the most common and in lower grades cased good condition examples are not that hard to obtain and are not hugely expensive, as far as I am aware this type seems to relatively free from being copied

They are always silver gilt and enamels, there may be privately made gold examples, sometimes on heavily toned examples the silver-gilt can look like silver.

A general point for collectors always best to buy from from a reputable dealer/auctioneer, while they may not be quite as cheap as some on some sites at least you do have some kind of guarantee if the piece is not as described.

As your family is of Croat origin probably the type 3 is most likely to have been awarde to Croatians during the inter-war period, the majority of type 3 pieces a manufactured by Huegenin.

Best of luck in your collecting venture and please dont hesitate to ask for help on this forum, there are many of us who can give good impartial advice.

All the best,

Paul

[paja]

Greetings Igor,

Order of the Saint Sava was introduced in 1883 by King Milan Obrenović. At first it was awarded to civilians only and from 1914 to military personnel as well.

The order was made by many producers but there are three main types of it.

I type 1883-1903

Obverse: Saint in red robes;

Reverse: MOI (King Milan monogram);

Producers: Rothe & Neffe, Karl Fleischhacker, Anton Furst, Jacob Leser, Georg Adam Scheid

II type 1904-1921

Obverse: Saint in red robes;

Reverse: 1883 (Year when it was instituted);

Producers: Georg Adam Scheid, Arthus Bertrand

III type 1921-1941

Obverse: Saint in green robes

Reverse: 1883

Producers: Huguenin Freres, Fran Sorlini, Griesbach & Knaus, C.F. Zimmermann

I type of the order is the rarest and the most appreciated among collectors and therefore harder to get and the most expensive.

III type is the most common (Huguenin one is pretty easy to find and not that expensive, but Sorlini is a bit rarer and the Zimmermann is the rarest).

The price also depends whether the order is accompanied by it's original box. I think that the I type orders are from gilded silver, except for the 5th class which is not gilded.

If I can help you with something else, please do not hesitate to ask.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

[paul wood]

Radmilo,

Most interesting, It must therefore mean that the American Numismatic Society Type 1 5th class example which was in silver-gilt was wrongly ribonned 4th class, thanks for the info.

Paul

[Rogi]

Thank you all for the help, we have a mixed family serb and croat. and there is at least 1 member of our family I remember having a St. Sava order (in old photos) so I'll have to double check any photos at grandma's house for that specific one and maybe narrow down that one our family history in Yugoslavia goes back for ages.

I've also noticed emedals selling a miniature version of the award (the Type 1) it is on this link:

http://www.emedals.com/collectors-gallery/europe/serbia/orders/order-of-st-sava/order-of-st-sava-3

Except it is chiped away, how easy/challenging is it to find someone to repair this ? (ie is there a specific forum member that restores awards?)

and how much smaller from a reg. St Sava is a miniature? (sorry if all these questions are a bit newb )

Thank you all for the advice and great info.

Igor

[paja]

Paul,

I was in a middle of writing my reply when you posted yours, sorry for duplicating info. As for the American Numismatic Society I've tried to find that order on their site but had no luck. As far as I know first 4 grades of the I type were all made of silver and gilded, and the 5th grade was silver only without gild. When you look at the 4th and the 5th grade orders of any producer that seems to be the only difference between them, 4th class is "golden" and the 5th is "silver".

Kind regards,

Radmilo

[paja]

Igor you are most welcome.

I just now saw your new post. I'm a slow writer so I'm always caught between two replies.

If you manage to find some photos of the person who received the order and maybe find out from which year are them or even better when was he awarded we would be able to narrow your search.

As for the miniature, my personal opinion in general is that enamel repairs are not very desirable, I think that it is better to leave them as they are. There are shops that do this type of reparations, but this is not very cheap. Also I think that in the case of the miniature it is impossible to do a good job because the saint is damaged.

I have just measured mine 5th grade one and with the crown it is 66mm (without around 47mm) long and around 42mm wide, you can compare that with the dimensions of the miniature from the emedals. But if you are just starting your collection maybe it's better to go for the "normal" orders first.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

[paul wood]

Radmilo. here is the ANS piece

enjoy

Paul

[paja]

Paul,

Thanks for the picture, actually I saw this one before on OMSA.

Yes, I believe that you are correct, it looks like officer to me even though it is labeled as knight. What do you think about producer? I can't identify it...

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Edited February 18, 2013 by paja

[paul wood]

Difficult, has a French look to me, certainly not Austrian.

Paul

[paja]

I was thinking the same thing, but I've never heard of the 1st type being made in some French workshop... I know this sounds strange, but maybe Bertrand made orders with monogram at the beginning(?).

I hope I didn't bore everyone with these pictures from "Orders and decorations..." but they are the best guide for issues like this.

Look at the second Bertrand on the second picture, there are some similarities, especially the cap of the saint.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-01585500-1361204505.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-98721600-1361204611.jpg

[paja]

There's one more 1st type that has been bothering me ever since I saw it. I really don't remember where I got these pictures from (ebay?), and I hope that no one will mind for putting them here. I think that we might have one more Bertrand (?) there. Compare it with the 4th Bertrand from the table above.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-36479500-1361205330.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-86801100-1361205345.jpg

Edited February 18, 2013 by paja

[paul wood]

Both look Bertrand to me. I know I saw a Bertrand catalogue from around 1900 (probably for the Paris Exposition of 1900) which stated that they made orders and decorations of all nations, some of the ones illustrated I remeber wouldn't immediately say Paris to you.

My theory is that a French diplomat serving in Belgrade (and there was a reasonable French presence) would finish his posting and would get a St Sava as a goodbye gift. he probably just got the warrant of appointment and got Bertrand to knock one up when he got home.

Paul

[paja]

That sounds possible, but why wouldn't they give him the order itself, and thus avoid complications. There had to be a decent amount of them at the Chancellery for decorations (or wherever they kept them).

My theory is that when Karađorđević's came to power they ordered some amount of St. Sava's from Bertrand. Workshop then received "blueprints" from Obrenović period by mistake. Or maybe there was an interim period, Karađorđević's kept the decoration and ordered it from Bertrand but didn't make any changes of it's appearance at the beginning. King Peter was known as rational and modest ruler and it is quite possible that he didn't return the decorations with the monogram of a member of the rival dynasty to the workshop that made them.

But anyway this is a big surprise for me! I never came across this information before, that Bertrand also produced I type of Saint Sava!

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Edited February 19, 2013 by paja

[Rogi]

so I don't make another thread, thank you soo soo sooooo much to you guys at this forum and especially to Radmilo for the guidance for this order

I picked it up today at the Ottawa Military Show, heres the link for pics of the show. Was such a wonderful time

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58318-ottawa-military-heritage-show-2013/#entry542567

and heres the links to my first St. Sava With box The icon looks fantastic in person and my pictures don't do it justice.

[paja]

My congrats on the order, it looks great! The box is also well preserved.

Perfect order to start your Serbian/Yugoslav collection with, may it be just the beginning of a great collection!

Kind regards,

Radmilo

[paul wood]

Well done, a good start to your collection, now for a fourth and third class.

Paul

[Rogi]

Thank you both for the feedback The only problem now is that I'm hooked

It is really amazing how much detail is in the icon, when I used my magnifier, you can see the writing in the scripture that St. Sava is holding, truely magnificant artistry and craftsmanship on this award

[paja]

Here's the Icon on my Huguenin order.

Edited May 1, 2013 by paja