EK 1914 All the different names for documents.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Over the years I have heard (and used) all possible variations Patents, Award documents, award certificates, Formal award document, preliminary award documents, Ausweis, .... but basically, it is always the same thing, a piece of paper confirming the Soldier recieved the Iron Cross.

Maybe in 1870 there were patent for officer, and Besitzeugnis for ORs... but in 14-18 there was no difference.

The decree by the Kaiser in 1918 that any document issued by an authority confirming the award should be seen as the final Besitzzeugnis (realising that unlike 1870 there was not going to be anyone issuing nice documents) basically gives the same status to an elabrorately printed document from the Alpenkorps and to a Soldbuch sized hand written page confirming the award. According to the Kaiser, both of these should be considered the besitzzeugnis...

I have been looking for a phrase that "does it" for me... I have heard all the arguments over the years "THAT is not a certificate, that is a document"... "That is a preliminary award document, its worth less than a formal one...".... enough!

Over the years we have been trying to cram round English pegs into square german holes when it comes to finding English equivalents for German names.

I am tending towards using "Proof of Entitlement" for Besitzzeugnis... (and dropping everything else, other than the informal catchall of "doc" or "award doc")

My reasoning is... the Besitzzeugnis is a written proof that the soldier is entitled to have/wear the iron cross... and the kaiser gave all documents this status in his decree.... ergo... all documents issued are a Besitzzeugnis.

What do you guys think?

[IrishGunner]

Definition of "document": "an official paper that gives information about something or that is used as proof of something"

Therefore, they are all "documents" - and that word could be used for all.

Definition of "certificate": "a document that is official proof that something has happened"

Therefore, they are all "certificates" - and that word could be used for all.

Definition of "entitlement"? "the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something"

Your logic that all are of the aforesaid pieces of paper are all "Besitzzeugnis" because the Kaiser said so ... is sound. Since the Kaiser was the ultimate arbitrator of what constituted official or having a right to something, when he said all those papers are recognized as "official," they all became, as you say, Besitzzeugnis. And they then all became documents, certificates, and all other synonyms for official papers giving proof of something.

Fred and Ginger say it best...

[Chris Boonzaier]

Indeed... but not every tomato is a tomato...

I would prefer Gingers tomatoes to Freds....

"award document" is maybe the easiest, as it documents the fact that an award was in fact made...

I have also often heard the argument that unlike with British medals, in germany the document "was the award"... which is false. I admit to having used that before as well, the document is the most important thing (that I agree with ;-) ) , but the award was just a "thing" that you could buy at a tailor (unlike with British awards)... but the argument that the document was in fact the award hold no water when initially so many awards were made without documents....

[IrishGunner]

Indeed... but not every tomato is a tomato...

Huh?

[paul wood]

Trust me Chris is right, you see what you think is a tomato in a buffet in south London, you bite it and discover it is the hottest West Indian chili you can possibly imagine. After such such a traumatic experience you never look at a tomato in the same way again.

Paul

[paul wood]

By the with documents showing entitlement (and they can come in many forms) I tend to use award documents it covers a multitude of sins.

Paul

[IrishGunner]

"award document" is maybe the easiest, as it documents the fact that an award was in fact made...

I have also often heard the argument that unlike with British medals, in germany the document "was the award"... which is false. I admit to having used that before as well, the document is the most important thing (that I agree with ;-) ) , but the award was just a "thing" that you could buy at a tailor (unlike with British awards)... but the argument that the document was in fact the award hold no water when initially so many awards were made without documents....

I would agree with "award document" being the simplest and most descriptive term in one.

But I don't agree with you on the second point and I think the British argument is quibbling - because their medals weren't "official" until gazetted - an official announcement - i.e. a piece of paper. I would argue that the London Gazette announcement or any piece of paper issued by the Crown was the "award" not the medal inscribed with a name.

And using your Kaiser logic above, the Kaiser didn't say, any actual EK given out is "official," he said that any document given out by an authority is the Besitzzeugnis. Ergo, only the document is official; not the medal itself. The Besitzzeugnis is what makes the medal "official." Therefore, the document, as official proof, is the award.

This extends to the American system, in which case neither the medal itself nor the certificate is the official award. You can get both in a nice ceremony. But the "award" is the actual orders announcing and authorizing the medal - the only official document in the group (even the certificate will usually refer to the orders number). At least this is the modern system; I'm not sure about WWI, but I'm willing to bet that the General Orders announcing the award was the true official document and therefore, the "award" itself, as medals probably could be obtained from sources other than the US Government.

[IrishGunner]

Trust me Chris is right, you see what you think is a tomato in a buffet in south London, you bite it and discover it is the hottest West Indian chili you can possibly imagine. After such such a traumatic experience you never look at a tomato in the same way again.

Paul

Yea, but it's a chili, not a tomato. So, how does that prove that every tomato isn't a tomato? A chili isn't a tomato. It may look like one, but it isn't one. Just like an EK may look like an "official award," but it isn't. No question about a Besitzzeugnis. It's official. It's an award. An EK could be just a chili masquerading as a tomato for the uninitiated.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Huh?

Sorry, confusing my vegatables... she has 2 ripe tomatoes, he has 2 wrinkled nuts.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

But I don't agree with you on the second point and I think the British argument is quibbling - because their medals weren't "official" until gazetted - an official announcement - i.e. a piece of paper. I would argue that the London Gazette announcement or any piece of paper issued by the Crown was the "award" not the medal inscribed with a name.

I disagree... The British get one medal, period. And once they have it in their hand, its theirs... it IS their award.

Although not all are named, the fact that (if I remember correctly) if you apply for a replacement, it is stamped as such, seems to indicate that the replacement is NOT your award... you lost the real one..

[paul wood]

Chris the Gazetting of the award is not a sudden legitimising process, there are cases of immediate awards, in the Great War there are examples of George V pinning the medal on the recipient sometime before it is gazetted, Surely you can't get more offical that the sovereign bestowing the award. Also for various reasons some awards were never gazetted for various reasons, some for national security, some because they were awarded to foreigners, some because there was a cock up between the awarding of the decoration and the publication of the London Gazette and it was omitted. The Gazette in my opinion is the dotting the Is and crossing the Ts, the actual bestowal of the honour is what counts. I would have thought a picture of the Kaiser decorating an identified soldier would be as good as any document.

Paul

[Chris Boonzaier]

And using your Kaiser logic above, the Kaiser didn't say, any actual EK given out is "official," he said that any document given out by an authority is the Besitzzeugnis. Ergo, only the document is official; not the medal itself. The Besitzzeugnis is what makes the medal "official." Therefore, the document, as official proof, is the award.

My point is, unlike in the British system, where the Medal itself is considered important enough that replacements actually be marked as such, in the german system the award seems to be simply a "FACT".... Your award is made almost like an "E-Award"..... and the medal itself is just a visable symbol, but you can buy as many as you want, on the document is simply a paper confirming that you have the award.

I dont think the Besitzzeugnis makes the award official... the general signing off on the award makes it official.... the Document is just a confirmation that the General had Authorised/confirmed it....

of course, for the soldier the medal itself was "the award"... but in fact it is simply a replacable symbol.

If we jump back a generation though... in 1870, when an iron Cross was to returned to the state, my argument falls through... there you have the approval, and an object that is officially the award....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Maybe this is more complicated than at first glance.... It seems to break down into 4 "types", from one extreme to another

1) Type 1, British, The award is the fact that the award was approved, AND you get an official medal with your name (for the most part). I think the gazetting is not part of the Process.

2) Type 2, 1870, The award is the fact that it was approved, and a returnable medal was given.

3) Type 3 1914, the award is the fact that the award was made, and you have probably get a medal. (I have one group to a guy who got an "iron Cross" but did not get the cross itself, as the Division had run out. So he was an EK winner from 1918 onwards, but only got the Medal in 1934.

4) Type 4, French, The award is the fact that your award was approved, and you have to buy the corresponding medal