Bundesrepublik BW arm badges/shields.

[SteveL]

Gents, information required on the huge variety of arm badges and shields that seem to be available to collect.......I show examples of such badges below..............

Can some body explain, what they actually are, what uniform items the would be worn upon, are they official ? who wore them ? I can find very little or no photographs of BW personnel wearing these types of badges............I do not mean the standard "Verbandsabzeichen der BW".

Prost ! Steve.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-87888100-1387903816.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-52990200-1387903801.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-23286200-1387903788.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-15032800-1387903716.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-12424500-1387903725.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-62493000-1387903735.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-07724900-1387903748.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-7645-0-42257300-1387903769.jpg

[GRA]

Hello Steve!

First, some of your questions regarding the wearing of these patches are - I hope - answered in this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54016-bundeswehr-unit-patches/

Second, the ID of some of the patches:

"P453" - PzAufklKp 400 (armoured recce coy)

"H62" - 3.Kp/AufklLBtl 3

Among the other patches I see Anti-Aircraft (both a Gepard armoured unit -"P452" - and a Patriot missile unit - "A940"), a sub-unit from Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 - "U88" - (I assume, as the brigade badge is centered on it) and possibly also a MP unit - "H51".

/Jonas

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Most often these lower organization badges are copies of the breast hanger worn by the individual units. Reserve units were probably the most prolific designers of these badges and often completely ignored the official regulations of the heraldic design on shoulder badges. It is always interesting to try and identify these unit badges.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited December 25, 2013 by Gordon Craig

[SteveL]

Jonas, Gordon, thanks for the information and link, interesting information, do not know if I will collect though..........

Prost ! Steve.

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

I didn't really add much to the dialog on Christmas Day. I did do some thinking about the individual badges and they are all researchable to a certain extent For instance, P452 3.PzFlak Abt. III would indicate a stand alone battalion (single digit 3) assigned to the 3rd Panzer Division HQ. Panzer Flak would be armed with the Gepard and this should be the IIIrd Company but I could not find any info on it on line. For this sort of "search" I rely on the NATO OOB for 1989 at this site http://www.scribd.com/doc/37695/NATO-Order-of-Battle-1989

There is a 3rd Flak Regiment of Artillery armed with 36 Gepards listed in the 3rd Panzer Div. in the NATO OOB. Could be a relationship there but here we bump into terms used in the BW and something else used in an English Language OOB. That is what makes these lower eschelon arm badges so difficult to trace. Far too often the units that produced these badges did not use a standard BW nomenclature.

The other avenue, of course, is try tracing them through the symbols on the badge. H51 is obviously associated with the Feldjaeger, H50 possibly a Luftland unit, U88 a pioneer unit as part of a Gebirgjaeger Batallion. I would only go to all of the work to try and trace one of these badges should it come sewn onto a field uniform.

Regards,

Gordon

[SteveL]

Gordon, thanks for additional thoughts on these badges...............as to been sewn on a uniform, I take it the moleskin field blouse was the item of uniform these badges would have applied to..................either the arms or chest positions ? Does any one have any period photographs showing these badges in wear ?

Prost ! Steve.

Edited December 28, 2013 by SteveL

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Yes they were usually attached to the sleeve of the field blouse. Sometimes cloth badges of the breast hangers were also produced and worn on the right breast. I have at least one field blouse with am arm badge and one with the breast badge. I'll see if I can dig them out and post pictures. The problem with taking pictures this time of the year is that it is dark in the house but lots of glare through the windows from the snow on the ground outside.

Regards,

Gordon

[GRA]

Hello Steve!

"...as to been sewn on a uniform, I take it the moleskin field blouse was the item of uniform these badges would have applied to..................either the arms or chest positions ? Does any one have any period photographs showing these badges in wear ?..."

I found some photos on internet of 3./PzGrenBtl72 from the mid-90's showing their patch (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54016-bundeswehr-unit-patches/#entry494151) being worn on the upper left sleeve on both moleskin and camouflage uniforms (even on both uniforms in the same photo!), the battalion breast badge was also worn together with the patch. My patches from that battalion (3.Kp and 7.Kp) shows signs of having been worn. PzGrenBtl72 was a regular battalion, so I assume there had to have been at least a silent approval from the chain of command for the wearing of company patches, or was it up to the CO to decide?

/Jonas

[Gordon Craig]

Jonas,

It was probably silent approval from the CO to have these badges worn. It is clearly stated in the Regs for the metal breast badges that they are not to be worn in cloth form. However, as a "civilian" armed force many things were allowed to take place which under other circumstances would not have been allowed. I am going through a large reorganization of my uniforms and can not find my tunic with the cloth breast breast and sleeve badges. Perhaps they will turn up sometime soon and I can post pictures. I also have a tunic with the U.S. marksman's award worn as a cloth badge on the right breast pocket.

Regards,

Gordon

[SteveL]

Thanks Jonas & Gordon, that's cleared a lot up for me, I might just start a collection in the New Year !

Thanks again and a Happy New Year to both you and your families !

Prost ! Steve.

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Happy New Year to you and yours and good collecting in 2014.

Regards,

Gordon

[GRA]

Happy New Year to both of you! Steve, it sounds good to start the new year with a new field of collecting, and Gordon, I look forward to see your uniforms whenever they turn up!

/Jonas

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Well I was able to find one field/camo uniform with embroidered badges although not the ones we were discussion here, but worth posting anyway.

You can tell from the pictures that he wears an embroidered Tatigabzeichen and a sports badge plus a pin on unit breast badge. I haven't been able to identify the breast badge but from the symbols on the badge it would appear to be for a Logistics Battalion attached to a Jaeger regiment. Since all of the cloth badges match the wear on the tunic itself I am confident that they were worn this way in the BW.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited December 30, 2013 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen.

Soldiers from the 101 Logistics Battalion. Note the sleeve badge on the right sleeve, the blue arm of serve on the shoulders and the cord for der Speiss.

Regards,

Gordon

[SteveL]

Nice tunic ! Great images ! Thanks Gordon.

This is the only one I have......................

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7645-0-08577900-1388578584.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7645-0-30509700-1388578616.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7645-0-83602600-1388578655.jpg

Prost ! Steve.

Edited January 1, 2014 by SteveL

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Very nice tunic to have in your collection. I'd certainly like to add one like it to my collection.

Regards,

Gordon

[aubagne98]

Hi Gordon,

the breats badge shows the Hamburg (white on red) castle.

Maybe this helps to identify.

Michael

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

Thanks for identifying the castle for me. At first I thought it might help me identify the unit as well but this castle appears on many other breast badges as well. I'll give it another try though and this time perhaps I will have some success.

Regards,

Gordon