Italy Fake or not? Cross Terza Armata - cross Quarta Armata

[j-sk]

Good evening Gentlemen,

I have recently seen the following WW1 Italian crosses on the Internet.

Does anyone of you know if they are original, although they have no maker's marks (i.e. Fassino's mark) on the back?

Thank you in advance for your comments.

All the best.

Jean-Samuel Karlen

[claudio2574]

This is a good book about the Italian cross-shaped medals.

Now I'm not at home. As soon as possible I will post some infos about these crosses. I remember that several variants exist, but I'd rather not to believe too much to my memory.

[j-sk]

Hi Claudio2574,

Thank you for getting back to me and for the reference of the book.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

All the best,

Jean-Samuel Karlen.

[rocketscientist]

The most appreciated III army cross is marked "FASSINO - Torino" on the reverse. Another variant, very rare, has a mistake in the sentence on the reverse "RICONOCSENZA".

Many unofficial versions are circulating, which not necessarily are fakes, but production of small ateliers. Mine, for instance, is one of those, without markings.

[rocketscientist]

j-sk, the III army cross you posted is original, in my opinion.

[claudio2574]

According to Brambilla-Fossati, there are at least 9 main variants of the 3rd army cross, plus several more with so little differences that are not relevant to be described. I agree with rocketscientist: your cross is original. It is very similar to the type "E" described in the book, like mine.

About 4th army cross: many variants for this cross also, 8 of them. In this case, however, the front picture of your cross raises some doubts: the mountains in the middle are almost flat, while in all the variants shown by Brambilla-Fossati they are much more 3D like.

Here is mine, from Fassino:

[j-sk]

Grazie mille Gentlemen for your valuable comments and informations.

Since I posted this topic, I discovered on the Internet a very interesting site created by Adriano Brambilla and Alessandro Paolini :

"Studio Feleristico SAS".

In their "Catalogo online", under "Medaglie a croce", I found several WW1 crosses among which is a Quarta Armata (N° 380, listed at EUR 130.--) similar to mine.

After a close examination (magnifying the pictures up to 150%), I got to the conclusion that both crosses (theirs and mine) were produced by the same manufacturer because they show the same specific flaws: i.e. a small curve in relief under the pearls on the right of the crown (top arm of the cross), and the same problem in the spelling of "ARMATA" (lower part of "R" touching "M").

Thank you again Gentlemen for sharing your knowledge on this highly interesting collector's area.

All the best,

Jean-Samuel Karlen.

[claudio2574]

Adriano Brambilla is one of the top sellers in Italy, his infos are quite accurate. He's brother of Alessandro Brambilla, the author of several top level books, like the one introduced in this topic.

[j-sk]

In the mean-time, I have also found the following cross (II Armata) for sale on the Internet.

It looks very fine, with a very nice ribbon, but I have a doubt about this cross though: the reverse is absolutely blank... No writings, no marks, no nothing...

What do you think of that, Gentlemen?

Cheers,

Jean-Sam. Karlen

[claudio2574]

This one should be a fake, or a modern restrike if you like. All the "official" crosses of 2nd army have some writing on the back side.

In an Italian forum, some years ago, I got the news that the original dies of some crosses were sold to some maker, but the front side only. The backside simply did not exist any more. In this way the buyer had the chance to make almost perfect crosses.

[j-sk]

Thank you Claudio for confirming what I suspected!

All the best.

Jean-Sam. Karlen

[j-sk]

Regarding this cross (quarta armata), I have seen other ones made by Fassino displaying a gilt enamelled crown on the ribbon.

Is there a difference between the crosses with and those without it (i.e.: one for combattant, one for non-combattant)?

Was it specific to the crosses made by Fassino or is it possible to find it on other variants?

Thank you in advance for your comments.

Jean-Samuel Karlen

Edited January 31, 2014 by j-sk

[claudio2574]

A few words about the story of these crosses. Just after the end of the war, 1918, the Duke of Aosta, commander of the 3rd army, decided to give an (unofficial) cross to all the soldiers of his army; the cross was made by Fassino and later other factories copied it. Being it unofficial, there was no rule, so now we find slightly different shapes or colours. For example, the "standard" cross has all the arms white, but there is one with two arms white, one red and one green, to remember the colours of our flag.

Later other crosses were created for the other armies, usually with the goal to collect money to be given to the widows or to the wounded. None of these were official, so you could expect, again, differences between the different factories, which have no special meaning.

The general rule is that a flat back side means modern restrike.

Edited January 31, 2014 by claudio2574

[j-sk]

Thank you Claudio for bringing more light in this somewhat confused area of 'unofficial' Italian crosses.

[j-sk]

By the way Gentlemen,

What were the rules for wearing these unofficial crosses.

Were they allowed for wearing with other official medals? In other words, is it possible to find official medals AND unofficial medals mounted together on multiple medal bars?

I have also found difficulties in finding regulations for official mounted medal groups.

For instance, on a WW1 medal group, what is the order of precedence for the following medals: Medaglia per volontari di guerra, medaglia 1915-1918, medaglia Unità d'italia, medaglia interalleata, medagia del comune di Roma per i soldati della guerra 1915-18, croce di Caporetto?

Thank you in advance for letting me know.

Jean-Sam.

[claudio2574]

Actually the unofficial medals should not be present in a medal bar, even if sometimes they actually are, for example the 3rd army cross which was considered a semi-official medal.

The order of the medals changed several times during the years.

The following pages come from the book " REGIO ESERCITO ITALIANO - UNIFORMI 1919 -1933 " by Ruggero Belogi.

[j-sk]

Splendido!

Grazie mille per questa utilissima informazione!

[claudio2574]

Just to add some enthropy: in the previous table some medals are not mentioned, like the interallied.

Here is a picture of the Capt Muccini's medals, who received at least one silver and one bronze medal for military bravery during WW1. The medals are described on the picture itself

[j-sk]

Thank you so much for the photo. That really is a great WW1 display... and it must have been great to serve with capt. Muccini too!

[claudio2574]

He wrote a book about his war history. It has been published twice after WW1 and recently it has been republished by a group of WW1 history enthusiast. A friend of mine made the comparison between the two first versions: one a few years after the war and the second during the years of fascism. He wrote in a very realistic way, describing himself and his soldiers' true life. In a few words he was able to describe a full situation in all its hardness. The fascism forced him to hide some words (not so many, however). It should be read by any war fanatics.

[j-sk]

This sounds interesting. Should you know the reference of the book, please let me know. I could try to lay my hand on one copy.

[rocketscientist]

Maybe Claudio2574 means Cap. Mario Muccini and his book "E allora, Andiamo!" ?

Editions: TAVECCHI-Bergamo (1938) and GARZANTI (1939)

Edited February 3, 2014 by rocketscientist

[claudio2574]

Exactly. The latest edition is nov. 2003, I've a copy at home, Can't remember the editor. The words "e allora andiamo" (something like "so let's go now") are the words told by Muccini himself at the end of all his experience, when he discovers that the world around him has changed completely after the war and he's almost alone. He leaves his uniform, exits the army and tells himself the sentence.

Edited February 3, 2014 by claudio2574

[claudio2574]

Some references (Italian only) to the three editions:

http://www.valdinotomagazine.it/sito/?p=2466

http://www.valdinotomagazine.it/sito/?p=2509

[j-sk]

Thank you for the references.

I'll try to get an uncensored copy.

By the way, I managed to get the book about the unofficial Armata crosses. I should receive it soon.

While talking about crosses, the "Vittorio Veneto" cross being an order (Cavaliere di Vittorio Veneto), what is the precedence with the other WW1 medals? Should it be placed before any other WW1 crosses/medals or should it follow them because it was only attributed a long time after (early 70's)?

All the best,

Jean-Sam.