Karageorge Order with swords

[obi007]

Hi everyone , I need a help can anyone recognise who made this order looks like French but I'm not sure ???

Edited February 5, 2014 by obi007

[paul wood]

My first thoughts are Scheid based on the crown. You are of course aware that the mottos have been transposed.

Paul

[paja]

Greetings,

Actually I think that the problem is not with the inscriptions but with the coats of arms. Also looks French to me, double-headed eagle is crowned like on one Bertrand's variant. But the (big) crown is definitely different perhaps even unique, don't remember seeing anything like that before - all of the "gems" are red and the dots between them green on both sides...

Edited February 5, 2014 by paja

[paul wood]

Thanks Radmilo, it's almost as if its some sort of hybrid, I agree re the centres, after coming in from a tube strike my brain is fairly useless.

Paul

[paja]

No worries, the important thing is that we noticed something strange.

You could be right, especially considering that this piece is coming from Liverpool medals were we saw some strange "hybrids" before, like for example that Huguenin's 3rd class Saint Sava with monogram on the back...

[Rogi]

Could you take a shot of the sides of this one, or is it a dealer piece?

[paul wood]

The source explains a lot, it may be the second hand car syndrome. You have two or three wrecked cars, you put the good bits together and low and behold you have a nice looking car.

Paul

[obi007]

That right Paja , medal coming from Liverpool medals website !!!

[paja]

The crown is still a puzzle to me, I checked the literature and my archive and can't find anything similar...

Generally speaking back side of the crown was not enameled on the 4th class orders, central red "gem" is surrounded by green ones with the white "dots" between them (Scheid & Huguenin) or it is the opposite (central green gem is surrounded by red ones - Bertrand). I deliberately underlined generally because there are some exceptions but the most of the orders fit the description from the previous sentence.

Edited February 10, 2014 by paja

[paja]

Scheid.

Edited February 10, 2014 by paja

[paja]

Bertrand.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-91911600-1392041375.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-50061300-1392041386.jpg

[paja]

Huguenin.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-20222700-1392042853.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-23519000-1392042862.jpg

[paja]

This seemed like a best topic for the following order from emedals.

Combination of the Order of the Star of Karađorđe with Swords for soldiers (1914-16) and the Order of the Star of Karađorđe (without swords).

Very interesting, perhaps even unique order.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-77156600-1395057550.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-70719700-1395057577.jpg

[paja]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-43807700-1395057630.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-63693500-1395057637.jpg

[Rogi]

It looks like a re-enameled first type

I've looked at this one a lot the past couple days.

It had the slogan of the first type Kara George's, yet mimics the style of the 2nd enameled type Kara George Stars.

[paja]

My first thought also was that someone enameled Soldier's star but it has no swords.

And the crown is not enameled which is not the case with the most of the orders without swords.

Edited March 17, 2014 by paja

[Rogi]

The most peculiar thing for me was how nice the suspension was, its not tampered or soldered.

I guess you could clip the sword off and edit accordingly, The thing that worried me about this piece on the side view is that you can't see a side photo to determine if there were arms attached at all originally, the plate covers the portion where swords could be attached, when compared to other Kara George's it isn't this way.

As for the crown if it was a soldier's issue originally could explain why there is no enamel on the crown itself.

to me there are two options to consider

1. Custom piece from Jeweler who made it on the order of the recipient.

2. Fake or some type of re-hash and reused piece, top and bottom was re hashed off of a type 1 and added to a type 2 with some re-enamelling work. (what we are assuming to be enamel, this could be nail polish for all we know )

The thing with it that leads me to more a 1 than 2 option is that it is done so well. It makes you want believe it is option 1 :D

[obi007]

What about this one is this GAS or Bertrand ,always confuse me , I believe is 4 class Bertrand ??? Need a help please !!!

[paja]

What about this one is this GAS or Bertrand ,always confuse me , I believe is 4 class Bertrand ??? Need a help please !!!

I would say typical Bertrand

[paja]

Just for comparison.

Edited March 18, 2014 by paja

[paja]

Back side.

Edited March 18, 2014 by paja

[paja]

To be honest the order looks genuine to me, the only question I have was it originally with swords or not. I can't think of reason why would someone take them off but who knows.

Perhaps someone made a mistake during the process of production...

Also one Bertrand's example of the Order of the Star of Karađorđe with Swords 4th class with "ЗА ХРАБРОСТ" inscription on both sides is shown in the Car&Muhić book.

Edited March 18, 2014 by paja

[obi007]

Thanks Paja !!!

[paja]

Don't mention it, thanks for photos!

[obi007]

NEW arrival ))