Uncategorised 5th Don Cossack Crosses

[Robin Lumsden]

5th Don Cossack Crosses in stamped aluminium have been around for decades.

They appear in the old 1960s-70s books by Klietmann, Littlejohn, Angolia, etc.

They also appear in umpteen auction catalogues, often involving the top end auctioneers.

Perceived wisdom is that originals had steel pins, die flaws around the '5' and non-curly '9's, while TLO 1960s fakes had brass pins, no die flaws and curly '9's.

My question is ............................ are ANY of these proven originals? Or are ALL of them post-war fantasy pieces ?? Or could they all be originals ??

No period photos of these crosses being worn have ever come to light.

It seems very strange to me that all of them, allegedly original or otherwise, have been stamped from pebbled aluminium sheeting.

This is unique in the area of Third Reich awards, whether official or not.

As for the quality, the painted finish on all of these things is very much on a par with the painted finish on original Turkish War Medals.

The photo below shows a montage of the various aluminium types. I have excluded all the enamel versions, which are actually of much inferior quality to the aluminium ones.

I've also attached a photo of a Don Cossack wearing a large white regimental cross .................. obviously not the same type.

Anyone have independent thoughts on these ??

[Robin Lumsden]

Guess not!

[Jock Auld]

Robin,

I have plenty of independant thoughts, just not about these, how many people have handled them or have one in their collection? I suppose when someone comes up with an actual photo of one in wear then the postmortem of the copies can begin. Until then it is always going to be six of one, half dozen of the other? I will keep my eyes open for any pictures that get skipped. I am more surprised that there is no paper trail from the Germans about their existance, they are normally quite good at that side of things?

Jock

[Robin Lumsden]

Hello Jock.

I agree, 100%.

These Cossack crosses are all a matter of faith ........................ some are believed in, some aren't.

The aluminium 'fakes' always seem to be of better quality than the aluminium 'originals'.

Oh, well ...............................

Edited August 18, 2014 by Robin Lumsden

[IrishGunner]

Interesting thread; I didn't know of these crosses previously. Curious that no photos have surfaced.

[paul wood]

One was sold a few years ago in a Morton and Eden sale with a certificate of authenticity from Detlev Neimann.

Paul

[Jock Auld]

I wonder what that bit of paper is worth now he has retired?

Jock

[paul wood]

Lot 213 in the November 2008 Russian sale, made £5,500 ($8,800).

go to mortonandeden.com and follow auctions link.

All the best,

Paul

[Robin Lumsden]

Paul.

Thanks for the link.

Someone had more money than sense, I think.

That's the 'accepted' type, but they still turn up at a fraction of that price.

[Jock Auld]

Paul,

I don't doubt it did well back then but Herr Neimann is out of the game and a lot of people this side of the channel think he has been very shrewd in retiring early. The question stands, what is his bit of paper worth now, not then? Soft strong and thoroughly absorbant springs to mind. I think too much in the past has been done on reputation in this hobby. It is slowly catching up the likes of Gottlieb and Winkler. Who's next it makes me wonder?

Best Regards

Jock

[Robin Lumsden]

COAs are not worth the paper they are written on.

Not just Niemann's ............................ but COAs from ANY dealer.

COAs are just marketing tools. Pure and simple.

Look at all the $250 deals made over the years by the TK Rings COAs !!

Bottom line .............. the Romans had it right ................... Caveat Emptor.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

If you take the time to learn your subject, your judgement will be every bit as good as the next guy's ................. whether he is a long-time 'expert' or not !!

[paul wood]

Unfortunately many of the people who buy these Russian related items would not be any the wiser if it was a piece of elephant's dung, the just buy it for the certificate, whether it is correct or not does not seem to bother them.

Paul

[Jock Auld]

What ave the romans ever done for us......?

[Robin Lumsden]

Subdued the Sassenachs !!!

[Saladin]

Hello Robin,

I just came across your post about the Don Cossack Cross.

I did some research  back in 2015. Here are my results:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders-decorations-third-reich/kreuz-des-5-don-kossaken-reiter-regiments-563855/

I know there may be some errors in my writing but I am by no means a professional.

 

All the best

Doug

[Robin Lumsden]

Hello Doug.

Nice work.

I have one of the old 1960s TLO crosses ...................... he managed to give them better detail than the (alleged) originals !!   Cost me about £30.

Personally, I first came across any mention of the Don Cossack Cross in this book ................ I think I was about 12 years old at the time !!  Happy days.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Robin Lumsden

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's one currently up for grabs ........................ for over £3,000 !!

[Robin Lumsden]

................ and one for the '57 vets !! :)

[Saladin]

They are good pictures Robin, I quite like the '57 pattern and that is a first for me.

Do you mind if I rip the picture and add it to the post over on Relics for information?

My particular cross came from an Eastern Volunteers Vet family along with his Ostvolk orders. It was a nice bundle of stuff so I have no concerns over the provenance.

I will have a look at my old Taffrail Dorling book as I am fairly certain that it was mentioned in it

All the best

Doug

Hi Robin,

I note that Chris Ailsby blogged about the Don Cross some time after I posted my missive on line.

http://ailsby-collection.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-min=2015-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2016-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=4

All the best

Doug

[Robin Lumsden]

Hello Doug.

Feel free to use my pix.

I like your cross .................. provenance is everything with these things.

The '57 item is just a modern fantasy piece.

All the best,

Robin.

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Robin Lumsden

[Saladin]

Thanks Robin,

I have popped the pictures on to relics as an update so information is all in one place

I like that fantasy piece.

It is just like a natural progression!

All the best

Doug

 

[LeonT]

Friends, whether the original cross or a fake?

[Saladin]

For me Leon this is just another post war fantasy variant.

Look at the sunken black enamel in the swastika. A sure indication in my opinion that the item was made in Eastern Europe not too long ago.

All the best

Doug

[LeonT]

5 hours ago, Saladin said:

For me Leon this is just another post war fantasy variant.

Look at the sunken black enamel in the swastika. A sure indication in my opinion that the item was made in Eastern Europe not too long ago.

All the best

Doug

The author of this book can be trusted?

 

 

..

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by LeonT

[LeonT]

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by LeonT