Imperial Russia Saint Anne 3rd class

[Yankee]

Dear members

Can anybody say who the maker might be & give an estimate to what era the badge is from. There is only the city, gold content mark & barely visible eagle below the enamel The badge measures 32mm which is rather small and the arms are flat. Thank you.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-57939700-1408163586.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-21619400-1408163611.jpg

[JapanX]

By these photos I`d say Keibel and Kemmerer.

Somewhere around 1850

[Yankee]

By these photos I`d say Keibel and Kemmerer.

Somewhere around 1850

That is great news, no idea what I had. Prince Dimitri Romanov stated the average size of the Badge is 36 mm. Had thought reduced size but I do not know if that exists with Russian Orders.

Sincerely

Yankee

[JapanX]

Had thought reduced size but I do not know if that exists with Russian Orders.

Yes, there were reduced orders (they appeared for the first time soon after 1814 war company).

Early badges (like your) have average size 32-33 mm

Cheers,

Nick

[Yankee]

Yes, there were reduced orders (they appeared for the first time soon after 1814 war company).

Early badges (like your) have average size 32-33 mm

Cheers,

Nick

I appreiate the info on the smaller size Saint Anne & I can assume that would apply to the other lower ranked Russian Orders. This also holds true for German States where earlier is smaller. I recall in the Hermitage there is a room called "Hall Of the Generals" who had participated in the Napoleonic Wars. Basically was floored by seeing all these decoations on each General. Some were also wearing impressive bars that would make any collector just stare. There was a special exhibit in the Guard's Museum that had the orders collection on view, unfortunately for me I had just missed it. Was told if you make an appointment a good amount of time ahead the curator would let you see the collection privately. Something to look forward to....

Sincerely

Brian

[paul wood]

Keibel and Kammerer date from about 1837-41 after which Kammerer left the partnership and Wilhelm Keibel continued producing imperial orders until the 1860s when he was succeeded by his son Julius and in around 1880 by his Grandson Albert. KK badges are scarce (especially if the date is visible on the suspension ring) although they don't command the high prices they used to a few years ago.

Paul

[JapanX]

Keibel and Kammerer date from about 1837-41

Paul, I know that

They say one picture could save you a thousand words

[JapanX]

On the leaft we have KK mark

On the right year mark 1853

[JapanX]

... although they don't command the high prices they used to a few years ago.

Let`s hope this tendecy will prevail

[Yankee]

Hi Gentlemen

Thank you Nick for showing a properly marked & dated Keibel & Kammerer LS Decoration.

That is a really nice example . Thanks Paul for providing the names of the heirs who continued the family business. Am I correct to think that all Saint Anne pieces made by Keibel & Kammerer did not put their initial on the lower reverse arm? The idea of starting the initials on the lower reverse began with Wilhelm after he was sole owner of the firm with the initial WK, his son Julius IK and grandson Albert AK or am I wrong? Did not see any date, is it possible that it could be on the gold wire ribbon ring. The ribbon itself is fairly tight to the ring and thought better not to pull in fear of tearing due to the age.

Sincerely

Brian

[paul wood]

Not true, you see IP on the reverse enamel of Imanuel Pannasch pieces from the 1830s.

Paul

[JapanX]

Am I correct to think that all Saint Anne pieces made by Keibel & Kammerer did not put their initial on the lower reverse arm?

Hi Brian!

Yes, they usually are.

If I remember correctly there are three types of marks that can be found on KK pieces from [1844s - early 50s] period of time.

First variation (early marks)

Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Eagle on the upper ray

KK on the lower ray

Year mark (in this case 1844) on ear

[JapanX]

Second variation (or subvariation of previous marks if you wish)

Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Eagle + KK

+ year mark 1851 on the year

Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Another example from the same time period

[JapanX]

Third variation (later 72 mark)

Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Brian, will it be possible for you to make a nice clear close-ups of obverse and revers?

Frankly, by these pictures it is hard to be certain in this or that attribution.

Regards,

Nick

[Yankee]

Not true, you see IP on the reverse enamel of Imanuel Pannasch pieces from the 1830s.

Paul

Hi Paul

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, never even thought to come across one of these. I think of them as the Faberge of Russian Orders, maybe those too come down to earth from their lofty prices.

Sincerely

Brian

[Yankee]

Brian, will it be possible for you to make a nice clear close-ups of obverse and revers?

Frankly, by these pictures it is hard to be certain in this or that attribution.

Regards,

Nick

Hi Nick

Will try to get larger detailed scans for you. First time to have seen one marked "KK" , so they do exist.

Many thanks for showing.

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

[Yankee]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-34754800-1408479416.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-23345200-1408479427.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-44687400-1408479451.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-48519400-1408479464.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-93138400-1408479479.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-84990200-1408479489.jpg

[Yankee]

Hi Nick

In IMG 170 the gold wire that looks to be a profile of an amimal of some sort. Unfortunately could not get it clear probably the wire being so narrow. I hope the other images work will work.

Sincerely

Brian

[Yankee]

Just noticed on image 166 the ring looks to be 50 maybe for the year or should there always be present the 56 gold content and it can't be 50 for the year?

[JapanX]

First time to have seen one marked "KK" , so they do exist.

They certainly exist

[JapanX]

Just noticed on image 166 the ring looks to be 50 maybe for the year or should there always be present the 56 gold content and it can't be 50 for the year?

It could be year mark 1850.

Here it is under right angle