Just what is a STAND of Weapons?

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

While working on my research material for my book, I have come across reference in 1830 to FORTY STAND OF RIFLES.

My question is what exactly is a Stand? Is it a reference to X amount of weapons grouped together??

I served over 21 years in the military and never heard weapons refered to in Stands, ours were all racked.

Kev in Deva,

[Guest aviator]

The term "stand" refers to the way rifles were kept overnight in field encampments in the Civil War era, usually three together standing butt down to form a self supporting tripod. A larger number could be stood together so I am not sure of the exact number in a stand of rifles but it would be at least three. Any less and they would fall over!

[Kev in Deva]

The term "stand" refers to the way rifles were kept overnight in field encampments in the Civil War era, usually three together standing butt down to form a self supporting tripod. A larger number could be stood together so I am not sure of the exact number in a stand of rifles but it would be at least three. Any less and they would fall over!

Hi Aviator

thanks for that, my reference came from a British Newspaper source, and was refering to Ireland in 1830, now I have to wonder did the British count in odd 3-5-7 or even numbers 4-6-8- or did it just refer to at least 3. There must have been a limit to the number of weapons allowed to be grouped together, because if an emergency arose the soldiers had to get there hands on then quickly and not stand around waiting in a Q

Kev in Deva

Dont ya just luv the mystery in history

[JohnW]

Hi Aviator

thanks for that, my reference came from a British Newspaper source, and was refering to Ireland in 1830, now I have to wonder did the British count in odd 3-5-7 or even numbers 4-6-8- or did it just refer to at least 3. There must have been a limit to the number of weapons allowed to be grouped together, because if an emergency arose the soldiers had to get there hands on then quickly and not stand around waiting in a Q

Kev in Deva

Dont ya just luv the mystery in history

I have only ever seen rifles stacked in threes - so forty stand of rifles must be 120 rifles altogether. Rifles in those days mustn't have been zeroed - nowadays you cannot simply pick up someone else's weapon!

John

[Michael Johnson]

In 1830 we're still talking flintlock muskets. My memory's getting dim after thirty years, but at Old Fort York we piled our Besses in threes, interlocking the ramrods.

Later, the Lee-Enfields had a "piling-swivel" (like a sling swivel with the bar cut out, that at least in theory would have allowed multiple rifles to be piled.

"which in your case you have not got." Naming of parts

Edited April 3, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[Kev in Deva]

In 1830 we're still talking flintlock muskets. My memory's getting dim after thirty years, but at Old Fort York we piled our Besses in threes, interlocking the ramrods.

Later, the Lee-Enfields had a "piling-swivel" (like a sling swivel with the bar cut out, that at least in theory would have allowed multiple rifles to be piled.

"which in your case you have not got." Naming of parts

Hallo Mick

You know what they say the first 30 years are the hardest, then its down-hill all the way from there

Thanks for all the info though

Kevin in Deva

[Les]

One American method of stacking rifles or muskets was having four men (especially if the formation being used is two ranks deep) stack their muskets together. The two front rank men would interlock the ram rods, one of the rear rank men directly behind them would pass the muzzle of his weapon between the two men and his ram rod would be interlocked with the two that were already interlocked. The three rifles/muskts would be set down, and the fourth man's musket would be leaned on the tripod or stack.

Four is a nice even number, and is more than co-incidental when you remember that in close order drill, counting off by fours has more than one reason, or purpose.

Les

[peter monahan]

This came up recently on another site I lurk near. Apparently the term (translated) is found in classical Greek accounts of battles, etc - presumably meaning a "vertical pile" of spears, etc. As Michael says, in 1812 in the British Army it meant THREE muskets - probably with bayonet and cartridge box for each.

I can do the interlocking ramrods trick Michael mentions and they're pretty secure but I've also got up to 5-6 on the stand by leaning the extras round the outside. (Risking eternal damnation and the RSM' wrath if they drop!)

By the ACW it seems to have meant 4, as that's how they stacked them. Too many more means they can't be grabbed quickly, which is half the point!

Having seen Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields with piling swivels (1890-1900 period) , I strongly suspect that 3 was still the magic number, the way the swivel is configured, but haven't ever checked the referecnes.

Anyway, a "stand of arms" is "a field expedient for stacking (muskets/firelocks/boar spears)".

My tuppence wotrth and change!

Peter

[Tom Y]

In 1830 we're still talking flintlock muskets. My memory's getting dim after thirty years, but at Old Fort York we piled our Besses in threes, interlocking the ramrods.

Later, the Lee-Enfields had a "piling-swivel" (like a sling swivel with the bar cut out, that at least in theory would have allowed multiple rifles to be piled.

"which in your case you have not got." Naming of parts

The WWI Gew. 98 had a hook that served the same purpose as well as snugging up the sling .

[Michael Johnson]

I just checked my copy of the Universal Military Dictionary (1779). It defines a "stand of arms" as "a complete set of arms for one soldier" (emphasis mine). It presumably would consist of musket, bayonet, and probably cartouche and belts.

So it could be as few as 40 men. I think, on reflection, that this is probably the correct use here.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[Ken MacLean]

From the London Times:

17 May 1855 - "Yesterday 3,500 stand of Mini? rifles and bayonets, in cases containing 20 stand each were shipped on board the James & Anne, sailing-lighter, for conveyance to the Crimea."

27 Sep 1878 - AFGHANISTAN "As we have before pointed out, it will be the height of folly to advance in small bodies. The batteries of guns presented to the Ameer in 1868, and the 18,000 stand of rifles in that year and on subsequent occasions, will all tend to increase the difficulties of forcing the passes."

9 Oct 1899 - "The Boers have, however, lately provided themselves with about 20,000 stand of Martini-Henry rifles."