Hermann Historica auction items on ebay

[Les]

Hermann Historica is offering a large selection of items on ebay this week. One of the items is a "1928" replacement copy of a PlM and letter sent to Udet from Hammerle, the Munich jeweler that Udet tried to buy a PlM from in 1918.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/6756-Erns...621999848QQrdZ1

The following is excerpted from the item description:

"Display item 1928, present of the jewellers and medal makers Hemmerle Brothers in Munich, Maximilianstr. 41 for Ernst Udet. Bronze, fire-gilded. In the original Hemmerle case. With it comes a letter of the jewellers dated March 20th, 1928 dealing with the sending of the medal (transl.): "Dear Udet! In spring 1918 you came to our shop and asked for a "Pour le m?rite" we unfortunately did not have in stock. Today, almost exactly 10 years later, the same thing again! Lest you don't have to look for your lost P.l.M. in the deep snow of the Zugspitze plateau, we can only provide you with this display item ..." In addition to the mentioned objects (i.e. medal, case, letter) a repair invoice of the Hemmerle Brothers, a commemorative sheet of Fighter Squadron 4 on the occasion of the bestowal of the Pour le m?rite on April 9th, 1918 with two cigars, the inside with the order of the menu served during the award-giving ceremony, and a humorous watercolour painting.

Udet lay wounded in a Munich military hospital, when the P.l.m. was bestowed upon him on April 9th, 1918. Due to the fact that he wanted to wear it immediately, he turned to the Brothers Hemmerle, who were not able to supply him with the medal. In 1928 he lost his P.l.m., an equivalent replacement could not be provided immediately by Hemmerle.

With it comes a proof of origin. Cf. Hermann Historica, auction 36, 17. October 1998, lot 6264."

The PlM looks like a Godet piece. Hammerle is still in business in Munich and it would be interesting if one of the forum members living in Germany would be able to stop by the firm and ask about their records, etc. I've heard that the firm still has it's original dies..... and if they did produce their own version of a PlM, whether those same dies are still in storage somewhere.

Before the link disappears, here's what the medal looks like:

and the letter from "Hammerle" that comes without a masthead on the stationary, etc.

With "H.H." fasten the seat belts....and hold onto your money belt tighter...

Les

Edited April 23, 2006 by Les

[Mike Dwyer]

Les,

Thanks for the post! Being a pickelhaube fanatic I went and looked and totally ruined my self esteem seeing all of those beautiful 'haubes (and uniforms, and medals, and swords, and etc., etc.) that I can't possibly afford!!

But they were nice to look at though, so really, thanks for the post.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Mike Dwyer

[Stogieman]

Call me skeptical.... I'm having a hard time swallowing this story. They do have several nice aviation-related photo albums. But the prices are a high and not enough photographs of what's there to justify the expense IMO.

[Les]

Call me skeptical.... I'm having a hard time swallowing this story. They do have several nice aviation-related photo albums. But the prices are a high and not enough photographs of what's there to justify the expense IMO.

Stogie...I agree. I'd be interested in seeing if the piece is a post-war Godet made piece, a "knock off" by Hammerle (no markings mentioned....?), or yet another possible fake?

Some of the stories, such as the cigars, etc, have a fair amount of entertainment value. I doubt Udet, the bon vivant that he was, would have let those cigars go to waste.... Perhaps that old expression "nice try, but no cigars" would have been the way to approach -that- story?

(Free ,unpaid advertisement for another PlM on the market at this moment, follows:) Meanwhile there's a perfectly good post-war Wagner made piece being offered in the "for sale" section of the forum here, that comes without a story and...is as close as one can get to a wartime piece made from the original dies, at a fraction of the price of a wartime one.

Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Cripers, no way to know one way or another, great story, but can only remain skeptical.

[Tim Tezer]

I've been out of the loop for several days, so I'm a bit late chiming in. My only comment is that I have seen an example of a Godet type PLM that came in a Hemmerle marked case, so they may have subcontrated them from Godet. As for whether that lends credence to the story on this one, well.... I guess it's up to the buyer to decide how much the story is worth.

Tim

Cripers, no way to know one way or another, great story, but can only remain skeptical.

[medalnet]

I agree with Tim. I have encountered this numerous times. Markings of a known order maker/distributer on a piece made by somebody else. It absolutely logical that a Bavarian manufacturer would not make Prussian decorations. The tooling would be way to expensive to justify making them for a few non Bavarian orders. He would contact his collegue and order one piece. Shurley everybody had a least one PlM for display purposes. Edited April 29, 2006 by medalnet

[gregM]

They quite a sellection of stuff but like Stogie says--the prices all seem to be a bit high. I went through

all 55 pages looking for EKs and saw some good and some bad. One of the 1870 EKs looked to me to be

a "muffin crown" fake.

[Les]

I agree with Tim. I have encountered this numerous times. Markings of a known order maker/distributer on a piece made by somebody else. It absolutely logical that a Bavarian manufacturer would not make Prussian decorations. The tooling would be way to expensive to justify making them for a few non Bavarian orders. He would contact his collegue and order one piece. Shurley everybody had a least one PlM for display purposes.

Let's not confuse what seems logical with what people, governments, or businesses making medals actually do. Despite the logical idea that a firm (or customer) needing one, or at most a very small number of medals could save money by buying one from another firm....that doesn't always happen. Previtera's book "Prussian Blue" for example shows the PlM with oakleaves worn by the Austro-Hungarian Emperor, Franz Josef. The medal was -not- made by any known Prussian, German or other "Reich" jeweler. Instead it may have been made by an Austrian firm.... One would think that the Kaiser as head of the German Empire, King of Prussia, and head of the Order of the Ritter des P.l.M. would have sent his fellow Emperor a "German" made P.l.M. If "saving money" was is a goal, then why didn't Franz Josef order one from Godet or Wagner....instead of having one made from a jeweler who didn't mark the medal with his Ritzmark?

Godet and Wagner could have saved money by buying various non-Prussian orders (for instance those made for Badeners, Bavarians or Saxons) instead of making some of them on their own.

Despite the economics and idea of "saving money" companies do not always do what is logical.

I do agree that there is evidence that some firms bought medals from other makers, and appear to have applied their own Ritzmarke. Friedlaender appears to have bought or acquired Wagner made PlMs and applied their own marking to the medal instead of making their own.

Instead of trying to come up with clear cut and across the board statements, lets focus on what the known facts are. Until recently Rothe was in the same location in Vienna for over 150 years, and no one ever thought to ask the firm about their records, if old dies were kept, and document what the firm did (or can be shown not to have done). Too late now, because the firm has gone out of business and all of it's assets have been sold.

Hammerle -is-still-in-business, and I've heard a rumor the firm has kept all of the dies they've had or used. Has anyone considered enquiring about doing research in the firms' records or archives? If there are orders for items from other firms, subcontracting, and so on, the records might have -facts- and not speculation on what a company did and what medals they actually made, catalogues, and so on.

I've suggested this before, and I'll suggest this again. There are several forum members living in Germany that might want to consider stopping at the Hammerle firm in Munich and asking a few questions about what records they have, if the original dies are still kept by the firm, and so on. For those who are German, or speak fluent German, visiting the shop and talking to the owner(s) directly ought to eliminate phone charges, language problems, and the like. Speaking to people face to face can sometimes reveal some interesting information.

Les

[Steve Russell]

The following is excerpted from the item description:

"Display item 1928, present of the jewellers and medal makers Hemmerle Brothers in Munich, Maximilianstr. 41 for Ernst Udet. Bronze, fire-gilded......Udet lay wounded in a Munich military hospital, when the P.l.m. was bestowed upon him on April 9th, 1918. Due to the fact that he wanted to wear it immediately, he turned to the Brothers Hemmerle, who were not able to supply him with the medal."

This 'story' by Hermann Historica does not check with Ernst Udet's own story of his search for a Pour le Merite in 'Mein Fliegerleben.' First, he was not laid up in a Munich military hospital on April 9th, 1918 recovering from wounds. He was grounded from an ear infection and sent home by Richthofen on April 6th--the day of his 23rd victory. When he arrived in Munich, he was tended to by his family doctor and spent time at home. On April 9th, a telegram informing him of the award of the PlM came to the house. Udet had been in town. His mother told him the news when he came home and bestowed a paper and yarn medal she had made around his neck--his first PlM!

The next day, he tried to find a PlM to wear and went to a jeweler on Theatinerstrasse (not Maximilian Str.). He even bumped into Wenninger and asked if he had a spare but instead he gave him the name of a Berlin firm that he could telegram and get it in a couple of days. This is likely the one seen worn in the left photo. He also was awarded his official one likely seen worn in the photo on the right.

[attachmentid=56857]

Udet was in Jast 11 when awarded the PlM, not Jasta 4. He took command of Jasta 4 upon his return in May. I also find it curious that they had time for dinner and a commemoration on the 31st of May. On that day, Udet gets a Breguet and is shot down in the process, his life saved by a parachute. He gets back to his unit by evening and flies a late sortie in a new aircraft.

While the PlM looks great and the documents look curious, where did the inaccurate story come from? Steve