IanB Posted December 22, 2023 Posted December 22, 2023 Hi Everyone, This is painted miniature which has been in my family for generations. Of course I have no idea who he was but I am hoping someone can identify the uniform he is wearing. It could be Navey as there is a ship in the background. It looks to me to be early 1800s but thats only a guess. We do have a close connection with India so it might be East India Company or indeed a medical doctor. I greatly look forward to you ideas Ian Hobart Tasmania https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/13hjdupc4es37127qnp6c/20231218_170644.jpg?rlkey=8ct8e4q3lcj5tylu3jsfw0sd6&dl=0 1
Terry37 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 My first thought is a naval uniform. Possibly RN or RCN. 1
IanB Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 Thankyou Terry, I agree especially as there is a ship in the background. What is RCN? Ian
Farkas Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Hi Ian, I think Terry might have been referring to the Royal Canadian Navy 👍 I’ve just been having another look, there is a similar style worn by the Royal Navy 1795 - 1812 but not the same. Without remembering you mentioning the medical connection I had a look at Naval Surgeon uniforms and there is great similarity, I haven’t found one the same jumping out though. The collar is the feature I’ve been trying to match. I think that’s where the answer is. I’d concentrate on finding a Naval Surgeon (Officer equivalent) uniform, from 1800’s, remembering that they each had more than one, formal/informal etc… Cheers tony 🍻
IanB Posted March 11 Author Posted March 11 Dear Tony, Thankyou so much. It was very kind of you to answer my query and I apologize for nor relying sooner. I thought he may have been Dr William Eatwell. see below BUT his grandmother was Fatima, an Indian from Calcutta so I would have expected him to have dark feature like his half brother, John my gg grandfather. Any thoughts? Ian It has been easier to find details of Dr. William C. B. Eatwell who resided at 98 Marina, St Leonards-on-Sea, presumably from the late 1880s until his death in 1899. Dr. William Coverdale Beaty (or Beattie) Eatwell (1819–1899). (M.B., C.M., MRCP, FRCP, etc.) 'Surgeon Major' in the Indian Army. Born 20th March 1819, Bombay, India. Died on 7th August 1899 in Norwood, Surrey. The son of Captain William Eatwell (1778–1862) of the Indian Navy, William Coverdale Beattie Eatwell became an Assistant Surgeon in 1841, a Surgeon in 1855 and was appointed Surgeon Major on 11th June 1861. He retired from the Indian Medical Service on 24th February 1863. [See attached record of Indian Medical Service] 1
Farkas Posted March 14 Posted March 14 Hi Ian, I haven’t given up looking, seems if the uniform is depicted correctly he isn’t Royal Navy, I can’t match that collar, though so many variations over the years it’s still possible. I’m currently tempted to say it’s American, there are similar uniforms I’ve seen 🤷♂️ but plenty more to rule out first, I haven’t even started on the ‘Indian Navy’ yet 😊 In the meantime, have you seen this 👇 you might find it interesting tony 🍻 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/83419711/william-eatwell 👍 1
Farkas Posted March 17 Posted March 17 (edited) Hi Ian, me again 😊 I need to start with a disclaimer 🤷♂️ If there’s one thing I learnt the hard way it is just because something you see a picture of, matches the thing you have… it doesn’t mean that there aren’t a dozen other things that match it too. Traditions, imagery & styles of system, uniform and more have long been adopted, mimicked, inherited etc throughout the world… particularly those started by us Brits 🇬🇧 The devil is in the detail. Having said that… I’m now even more convinced the uniform being worn is a US Navy uniform. I can’t find anything that matches the collar lace of your guy, in particular the extra middle piece, that is except for that of an 1800’s USN Captain. The ‘lace’ strip in the middle is the detail I’ve focused on. Officers of many navies have the collar bordered but not that one in the middle… So eventually I focused on confirming that USN link and found this 👇 site with the most excellent & extensive details. https://asvab-prep.com/pictorial-history-of-us-navy-uniforms-need-to-know/ You will need to go through it yourself. It will be worth it. Many of the subtle differences involve cuff stripes, trousers lace, number of buttons or width of lace..,that type of thing, which will be impossible to compare as they are not evident in your portrait. However… it seems navy surgeons wore equivalent uniforms to the regular officers which gave me the encouragement to keep reading through it. & then I saw this connection and that lead to lots of things like this 👇 So it turns out there is a significance to this 👇 that i overlooked 🤷♂️ So I refer back to my initial disclaimer.., ‘Just because this matches, it does not mean that nothing else matches too…’ But I reckon there is the start of the answer. Cheers tony 🍻 Edited March 20 by Farkas Spelling 2
IanB Posted March 20 Author Posted March 20 Hi Tony, Thankyou so much for you interest and search for details. Do you think he may have been in the British East India Navy which as far as I can tell were run by the British East India Company as a sort of private army until the Mutiny. We don't seem to have had any family links to the US. Thankyou also for the link to find a grave Ian
Farkas Posted March 20 Posted March 20 13 hours ago, IanB said: We don't seem to have had any family links to the US. Hi Ian, well it seems you might have to find that link 🥴 Quick timeline… - East India company established 1600. - Honourable East India company Marine established 1612, it was renamed Bombay Marine in 1686. - Bombay Marine came under ‘Royal’ control in 1830 and it was renamed His Majesty’s Indian Navy. - Until 1745 there was no official British Royal Navy uniform. (article at page end) - From 1745 until 1830 the Bombay Marine chose to ‘mimic’ the uniform of the Royal Navy, loosely I imagine. - From 1830 His/Her Majesty’s Indian Navy wore the same uniform as the Royal Navy. Royal Navy Uniform. Only Captains and the 3 Admiral ranks ever wore two epaulettes. No rank marks (though officers had lace borders) were worn on the collar, rank stripes are still only worn on the cuffs. Other mis matches can be seen too. Surgeon uniforms had no lace border on the collar. They did however have a distinctive insignia on the collar. Clearly unlike that in the portrait. This was all new to me just about. However I have to reach the conclusion than your portrait does not show a British or Indian Navy uniform… 🤷♂️ That’s no bad thing in my opinion, it’s an interesting new branch on the family tree waiting to be found. The only matching uniform I found was that of the US Navy (( as explained/pictured best I can in my previous reply 👍)) That revealed the significance of the acorn & leaves attached to your picture, it is his insignia which is, to this day, still the insignia of the… U.S. Navy Medical Corps. & That’s all I’ve got! cheers tony🍻 👇 From GlobalSecurity. Org website “ The uniform of the Indian Navy has by and large been inherited from the Royal Navy. In that Service, the uniform has evolved over the past 250 years. At the beginning of the eighteenth century, there was no standard uniform for naval personnel, and each ship conformed more or less to the sartorial whims and fancies of her Captain. History records that in 1745 a group of British naval officers decided to petition the Admiralty for an official uniform, as was being worn by other navies. This was done, and the Admiralty directed certain officers to appear in what they considered to be a good design. The final decision was to be left to King George II. One day while riding in Hyde Park, the King caught sight of the Duchess of Bedford, wife of the First Lord; who made a lovely picture dressed in a brand new riding habit. The color of the dress was a dark navy blue, with rows of gold buttons down the front, a white collar, and gold lace on the cuffs. The King was so taken up with this colour scheme that he immediately ordered its adoption for his Navy's uniform. There is some speculation that the colors the Duchess was wearing had been selected by her husband. Be that as it may, this was perhaps why the Navy's winter ceremonial uniform became a dark navy blue with a double row of buttons in front, gold stripes depicting rank on the cuffs, a white shirt with stiff collar, and a black tie. The epaulettes worn by all naval officers owe their origin to the French Navy, which passed them on to the British and thence to many other navies of the world. The epaulette is nothing but a decorative amplification of the shoulder strap, whose original function was to prevent the bandolier from slipping off the shoulder. In the early days, Lieutenants wore only one epaulette on their left shoulder. When in command, however, this epaulette was shifted to the right shoulder.”
Farkas Posted March 21 Posted March 21 14 hours ago, IanB said: We don't seem to have had any family links to the US. Hi Ian, well it seems you might have to find that link 🥴 Quick timeline… - East India company established 1600. - Honourable East India company Marine established 1612, it was renamed Bombay Marine in 1686. - Bombay Marine came under ‘Royal’ control in 1830 and it was renamed His Majesty’s Indian Navy. - Until 1745 there was no official British Royal Navy uniform. (article at page end) - From 1745 until 1830 the Bombay Marine chose to ‘mimic’ the uniform of the Royal Navy, loosely I imagine. - From 1830 His/Her Majesty’s Indian Navy wore the same uniform as the Royal Navy. Royal Navy Uniform. Only Captains and the 3 Admiral ranks ever wore two epaulettes. No rank marks (though officers had lace borders) were worn on the collar, rank stripes are still only worn on the cuffs. Other mis matches can be seen too. Surgeon uniforms had no lace border on the collar. They did however have a distinctive insignia on the collar. Clearly unlike that in the portrait. This was all new to me just about. However I have to reach the conclusion than your portrait does not show a British or Indian Navy uniform… 🤷♂️ That’s no bad thing in my opinion, it’s an interesting new branch on the family tree waiting to be found. The only matching uniform I found was that of the US Navy (( as explained/pictured best I can in my previous reply 👍)) That revealed the significance of the acorn & leaves attached to your picture, it is his insignia which is, to this day, still the insignia of the… U.S. Navy Medical Corps. & That’s all I’ve got! cheers tony🍻 👇 From GlobalSecurity. Org website “ The uniform of the Indian Navy has by and large been inherited from the Royal Navy. In that Service, the uniform has evolved over the past 250 years. At the beginning of the eighteenth century, there was no standard uniform for naval personnel, and each ship conformed more or less to the sartorial whims and fancies of her Captain. History records that in 1745 a group of British naval officers decided to petition the Admiralty for an official uniform, as was being worn by other navies. This was done, and the Admiralty directed certain officers to appear in what they considered to be a good design. The final decision was to be left to King George II. One day while riding in Hyde Park, the King caught sight of the Duchess of Bedford, wife of the First Lord; who made a lovely picture dressed in a brand new riding habit. The color of the dress was a dark navy blue, with rows of gold buttons down the front, a white collar, and gold lace on the cuffs. The King was so taken up with this colour scheme that he immediately ordered its adoption for his Navy's uniform. There is some speculation that the colors the Duchess was wearing had been selected by her husband. Be that as it may, this was perhaps why the Navy's winter ceremonial uniform became a dark navy blue with a double row of buttons in front, gold stripes depicting rank on the cuffs, a white shirt with stiff collar, and a black tie. The epaulettes worn by all naval officers owe their origin to the French Navy, which passed them on to the British and thence to many other navies of the world. The epaulette is nothing but a decorative amplification of the shoulder strap, whose original function was to prevent the bandolier from slipping off the shoulder. In the early days, Lieutenants wore only one epaulette on their left shoulder. When in command, however, this epaulette was shifted to the right shoulder.” 1
IanB Posted March 23 Author Posted March 23 Dear Farkas, Thankyou so much for all your work and interest in the uniform of the gentleman in my miniature. I really appreciate it. kindest regards Ian Hobart Tasmania
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