German Dress Bayo and Sheath

[Avitas]

Hello there,

This is my only bayonet I have so far (missed out on a nice ww1 British Navy one by a day!), a German Army

Dress Bayonet from I think WW2. It is from the German army but I'm not sure exactly what time frame, as there are no "Nazi" markings on it. It looks like the maker is O & C or O & S with a figure in battle stance as the logo. I would really like to know any information that anyone has on this bayo, when it was made and its maker. Please post your examples if you have a match.

Thanks,

Pat

[Avitas]

Here is a closer up shot...

[Avitas]

..and the extreme close-up of the maker mark. Does anybody recognize this maker?

[Avitas]

Here is the metal sheath and leather belt holder. As I said, this is my only bayo and any info on this type of sheath set up is welcome.

Pat

[Avitas]

A closer up of the leather..

[Avitas]

and lastly, what would a posting on edged weapons be without a picture of an edge...

[Daniel Murphy]

Pat,

The way the sharp edge (clipped edge) on top of the blade is milled is a sure sign of a 1920's to 30's dress bayonet. This was not done before that period and is a result of a change in regulations during that period. It does make for a good looking blade and helps date them. It is not unusual for there to be no other markings (except for the maker) on this type of piece since these were not issued, but had to be purchased by the owner. Normally when other markings are present it is in the form of engraving or blade etching.

A key I use to tell Imperial German from later pieces is that most dress bayonets (of the 98 style) from the imperial time have horn scales on the hilt and THREE rivets to hold them. Most of these were made between 1915-18 (or possibly even later in the 20's) when the officers no longer wore their swords in the field. Imperial pieces also have a standard point like on a issue bayonet and can even be sawbacks. Even the darkest horn (buffalo, cow, etc.) is mottled. Look for slight variations in the black color ranging from green to dark gray etc.. Also horn has a grain just like wood and this grain can sometimes be seen on the narrow edges of the scales where they have not been checkered(i.e. the top and bottom edges when the piece is held upright and horizonal). They are out there but hard to find. On many the hilt and scabbard both are enameled black.

Your piece does look like it might be horn. If so it would be the latest one I have seen. 99%of the ones made in the 20's-30's have a form of plastic or bakelite for the grip scales. You have a very nice complete piece, even better if it has horn scales.

Dan Murphy

Edited May 14, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Avitas]

Hi Daniel,

The grip doesn't feel like wood, it is much too smooth and hard, so it might be made of horn. It's definitely not plastic or bakelite. This falls into the period I suspected it to be as well, I've got a few pieces from between wars Germany. Any other info that can be added or thoughts on the horn grip?

Thanks,

Pat

[Bob Hunter]

The maker mark is that associatied with Ernst Pack u. Sohne mbH, Ritterwerk Solingen. Pack was earlier associated with Ohlinger & Co.,GmbH, also of Solingen. Your letters may refer to that association. On later Packs one would expect to see the letters E. P. & S. over the figure of what is often described as Siegfried, the lengendary germanic warrior with the word Solingen underneath.

[Daniel Murphy]

I thought it was horn from the photo, the mottled color gave it away. The only thing I would add is not to store it in an area where there is extreme or rapid fluctuations in temperature or humidity. This can cause horn to curl up and crack. No attic or basement storage. Kept at normal room temperature and humidity ( and away from pests like Carpet Beetles) it should last forever. As a kid I used to buy old mounted antlers for my room. I soon found out what Carpet beetles were. In their larval state, they will actually eat horn, antlers, wool or any other item which comes from an animal. Yes I have seen munched-on horn gripped dress bayonets at shows.

Dan Murphy

[Tony J]

The blacksmith, Siegfried, with the letters P.O.&C below it was the trademark of Pack, Ohliger & Cie. This mark is only found on Imperial era edged weapons dating roughly 1915-1918. This company disappeared off the rolls of Solingen makers/distributors soon after the end of World War One. P.O.&C was a partnership of sorts of which after the war only E.Pack survived as E.Pack & Sohne. I have a beautifully chiselled, Prussian deluxe model 89 pattern degen in my collection with the P.O.& C. trademark. I have also owned a P.O.&C marked Imperial Fire Officials dagger at one time. This mark is fairly scarce as Pack, which was originally registered as E. Pack in 1909, and again as E.Pack & Sohne in 1915, was not yet the large manufacturor it was later during the TR era. Short term partnerships such as this was not unusual in the Solingen cutlery trade.

I have to respectfully disagree with Dan's statement that the swedged upper edge was not used prior to the 20s or 30s. For starters, Avitas' bayonet is proof with the P.O.&C trademark. I also have several Imperial era Eickhorn and W.K.C. NCO bayonets with the swedged upper edge. The back to back squirrel trademark that Eickhorn and the dual king's and knight's head trademark W.K.C. used during the Imperial era verifies them as from that period. If you look thru some references on Imperial bayonets you will see other examples with this style blade. Look specifically at the Imperial presentation bayonets with the WRII monogram on the grip and ocassionaly with the eagle head pommel. Many of these have this distinctive swedge on the blade.

As for the grips having three pins versus two pins, this is partially correct. Both will be found on Imperial era bayonets. While the three pin arrangement is somewhat more desirable and a quicker visual means of identifying an early bayonet, it is not solely true. Where you will see the three pin arrangement most often is on W.K.C. produced bayonets. Again, these will be marked with the separate king's and knight's head trademark. There certainly are some other examples also. I recently sold to a fellow collector, a three pin W.K.C marked bayonet which had the swedged upper edge.

The grip plates can be made of checkered wood, horn, pressed leather or a form of hard rubber know as gutta percha(sp?) as well as natural stag antler.

Another good indicator of an earlier produced dress bayonet is the fact that the hilt will be of iron or mild steel and will be magnetic. These steel hilts will carry through to the mid 1930's with some manufacturors. After that the hilts were changed to a zinc based metal.

Just some further thoughts.

Tony

[Avitas]

Great info guys!

I thought I saw a "P" before the "O &C", but I wasn't sure. Another tidbit, the entire dress bayo set is magnetic except the leather belt piece and the grips. Better to keep it away from moisture for sure. I am very pleased with this bayo, seems like a nice uncommon dress bayonet, I will hopefully find some more in the future. Any more comments are welcome also.

Thanks again,

Pat