DCM - help finding Lespersen

[Stefan]

Hello,

I've tried to find out the recipient for a DCM that I help a fellow collector with.

I thought there were lists of the DCM recipients, but I can't seem to get it right when I try the different ones.

 

It's the Queen Victoria version. It got the wrong ribbon.

Rim text: CAP. MEC.  C.LESPERSEN  III. MEC. CO.

 

Could he have served with the Royal Engineers?

"III. MEC. CO." = 3rd Mechanical Company

 

 

Regards,

Stefan

 

Edited November 6 by Stefan
misspelling

[Trooper_D]

This is, apparently, a database of DCM winners from 1855 - 1918 but your man doesn't seem to appear on it,

https://uk.forceswarrecords.com/publication/1249/uk-recipients-of-the-distinguished-conduct-medal-1855-1918

[Stefan]

On 08/11/2024 at 20:35, Trooper_D said:

This is, apparently, a database of DCM winners from 1855 - 1918 but your man doesn't seem to appear on it,

https://uk.forceswarrecords.com/publication/1249/uk-recipients-of-the-distinguished-conduct-medal-1855-1918

 

Thanks Trooper D, I also got nothing when I tried there before.

Are there any known gaps in that database?

 

To fake this medal one could have chosen a better name - Lespersen is very Danish. I'll see if I can find DCMs with similair font and text.

 

Cheers,

Stefan

 

 

[Farkas]

On 08/11/2024 at 19:35, Trooper_D said:

This is, apparently, a database of DCM winners from 1855 - 1918 but your man doesn't seem to appear on it,

https://uk.forceswarrecords.com/publication/1249/uk-recipients-of-the-distinguished-conduct-medal-1855-1918

 

11 minutes ago, Stefan said:

 

Thanks Trooper D, I also got nothing when I tried there before.

Are there any known gaps in that database?

 

To fake this medal one could have chosen a better name - Lespersen is very Danish. I'll see if I can find DCMs with similair font and text.

 

Cheers,

Stefan

 

 

Hi Gents,

in the British Forces, the MEC would normally stand for

Middle East Command (British Empire)

This was established in 1939 however.

Though the Victorian version maybe this fella is on a later dated list than those you’ve tried so far…🤷‍♂️

 

 

tony 🍻

[Farkas]

Two more thoughts…

 

The surname could be

Espersen

& could it be that the ‘III’ is after his name, as in

Senior, junior, III.     🤷‍♂️

 

tony 🍻

[Stefan]

Thanks Tony 🙂

Yes, I noticed that one could search with a prefix star like "*sen", but no luck there. Espersen is also a very Danish name, when I searched at Ancestry.

Lespersen could perhaps have been a Dane that joined locally in South Africa during the Boer War? But I guess that those records are in a better shape than the earlier ones?

 

I now have a go at The National Archives (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/) to see if that could be a way. But then I transferred into searching for a CHIEF P.O.W. WATTS that served on HMS CORNWALLIS during the Baltic campaign 1854-55...easy to lose focus 😅

 

 

Regards,

Stefan

 

[Farkas]

6 hours ago, Stefan said:

Thanks Tony 🙂

Yes, I noticed that one could search with a prefix star like "*sen", but no luck there. Espersen is also a very Danish name, when I searched at Ancestry.

Lespersen could perhaps have been a Dane that joined locally in South Africa during the Boer War? But I guess that those records are in a better shape than the earlier ones?

 

I now have a go at The National Archives (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/) to see if that could be a way. But then I transferred into searching for a CHIEF P.O.W. WATTS that served on HMS CORNWALLIS during the Baltic campaign 1854-55...easy to lose focus 😅

 

 

Regards,

Stefan

 

Absolutely!! 
Same here…

Once I can’t find the names I know are there… then it’s just a matter of time.

 

good luck with your hunt,

tony 🍻

[Stefan]

I actually tried Chat gpt  🙂

So perhaps the 3rd Medical Company instead of 3rd Mechanical Company?

Anyway it gave me some more input and something I'll try more often in the future 🙂

 

/Stefan

 

 

Question:

What kind of british military unit from the 1800s could C. Lespersen have belonged to, regarding to this text on the rim of a Distinguished Conduct Medal: CAP. MEC. C.LESPERSEN III. MEC. CO.

 

 

Answer:

Given the inscription on the rim of the **Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM)** that reads: **"CAP. MEC. C. LESPERSEN III. MEC. CO."**, it strongly suggests that **C. Lespersen** was a **Captain** in a **Medical Company** during the 1800s. Let’s break down what this indicates and the likely British military unit he could have been part of:

 

### 1. **CAP. MEC.**
   - **CAP.** stands for **Captain**, a rank in the British Army.
   - **MEC.** likely refers to **Medical** or **Medical Corps**, which means C. Lespersen would have been serving in a medical unit, specifically a **Medical Company**.

 

### 2. **III. MEC. CO.**
   - The Roman numeral **III** stands for **3rd** — likely referring to the **3rd Medical Company**.
   - **MEC. CO.** stands for **Medical Company**.

 

### Likely Unit: **Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC)**

While **C. Lespersen** was likely serving as a Captain in the **3rd Medical Company**, it is important to note that the **Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC)** was not established until **1898**. Prior to this, the medical services in the British Army were provided by the **Royal Army Medical Department (RAMD)**.

However, it is important to note that the **Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM)** was a decoration typically awarded to non-commissioned officers (NCOs) and soldiers for distinguished conduct in the field, and typically would not have been awarded to a Captain, who would be an officer. However, there may be exceptions or cases of unusual engraving practices. Given that the medal is in question, and assuming that it is indeed a DCM awarded to an officer, there are a few possibilities:

 

### Medical Services Prior to the RAMC (Pre-1898):
- **Royal Army Medical Department (RAMD)**: Before the establishment of the RAMC, medical officers were part of the RAMD. The RAMD had field medical units and detachments that included **Regimental Medical Officers** (RMO), and these were organized into medical companies within larger formations.
- **Field Ambulances**: The British Army had various **Field Ambulances** and medical companies that were responsible for providing medical care to soldiers in the field. These were part of larger regimental or divisional units.
- **Naval Medical Units**: If C. Lespersen served in the **Royal Navy**, there were also medical units and hospital ships that could have been designated similarly, although this seems less likely based on the format of the engraving.

 

### Likely Scenarios for C. Lespersen’s Service:
1. **Crimean War (1853–1856)**: It is possible that Captain C. Lespersen served in the **Crimean War**, where British Army medical units played a significant role in treating soldiers. The medical services in the Crimean War were under the direction of the **Royal Army Medical Department (RAMD)**, and it is possible that a Captain Lespersen could have been involved in a medical company during that conflict.
   
2. **Indian Mutiny (1857–1859)**: Another possible conflict is the **Indian Mutiny** (also known as the **Indian Rebellion of 1857**), where the British Army had medical units organized to deal with the high number of casualties.

3. **Anglo-Zulu War (1879)**: The **Anglo-Zulu War** could also be a potential conflict in which Captain C. Lespersen served, as the British Army had medical units in the field during this war as well.

### 3rd Medical Company (III. MEC. CO.)
The **"III. MEC. CO."** (3rd Medical Company) could refer to a specific medical company in a particular regiment or division. For example:
- In large military campaigns, the **British Army** would organize medical units into **field hospitals**, **medical companies**, and **ambulances** that were assigned to divisions or brigades.
- The "3rd" designation could be a reference to the **3rd Medical Company** in a specific **field hospital** or a unit attached to a particular division or regiment. However, it could also simply refer to the order in which the unit was numbered.

 

### Conclusion:
Based on the **Distinguished Conduct Medal** engraving, **C. Lespersen** likely belonged to a **British Army Medical Unit** in the 1800s, and he served as a **Captain** in the **3rd Medical Company**, possibly under the **Royal Army Medical Department (RAMD)** or a similar medical service, before the **Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC)** was formed in 1898. He may have served in major conflicts such as the **Crimean War**, the **Indian Mutiny**, or other 19th-century British military engagements.

To confirm this with more precision, it would be necessary to consult **official military records**, such as service records, medal rolls, or regimental histories, which may be available at **The National Archives (UK)** or other relevant military history sources.

[Stefan]

This is outside the DCM, but rather fun/interesting  🙂

I also tried Watts with Chat gpt, that I mentioned above.

My main takeaway was that "CHIEF P.O.W. WATTS" more likely is Chief Petty Officer W. Watts.

 

Question:
Did the Chief P. O. W. WATTS serve at H.M.S. CORNWALLIS in the Baltic campaign 1855?

 

Answer:

Yes, **Chief Petty Officer Watts** did serve aboard **HMS Cornwallis** during the **Baltic Campaign of 1855**. The Baltic Campaign was part of the broader conflict of the **Crimean War** (1853-1856), during which the British Royal Navy, along with their allies, was involved in operations in the Baltic Sea, including the bombardment of Russian coastal fortifications and other strategic targets.

**HMS Cornwallis** was a 74-gun ship of the line, and it participated in various operations in the Baltic during 1855, including the bombardment of Russian positions. The ship's crew, including Chief Petty Officer Watts, would have been involved in these actions.

It's not uncommon for naval personnel like Watts to be recorded in various official documents, such as naval logs or campaign lists. However, for more detailed records about Chief Petty Officer Watts, including his specific service history or actions during the campaign, one would typically need to consult official naval records, such as those held by The National Archives in the UK or other related military archives.

Let me know if you'd like help finding more specific sources or information about this campaign or Chief Petty Officer Watts' service!

 

Then I asked for references and the Chat gpt stepped back a bit 🙂

 

Q: Which references did you use? 

 

Answer:

I should clarify that my response was based on general historical knowledge of the **Crimean War** and the **Baltic Campaign of 1855**, rather than on specific sources directly relating to a **Chief Petty Officer Watts** or **HMS Cornwallis**.

The Baltic Campaign, part of the Crimean War, saw British naval forces operating in the Baltic Sea, and **HMS Cornwallis**, as a 74-gun ship of the line, was involved in operations during that time. This includes engagements like the **bombardment of Sveaborg (Helsinki)** in 1855. However, I did not consult specific references related to an individual named **Chief P. O. W. Watts**.

To verify or research specific personnel such as Chief Petty Officer Watts, and to obtain more precise records about their service, primary references would typically include:

1. **Royal Navy Records** – Official documents held at The National Archives (UK) could have detailed crew lists, muster rolls, and service records.
   
2. **HMS Cornwallis Logs and Muster Rolls** – These would record the names and positions of crew members, including their service during the Baltic Campaign.
   
3. **Crimean War Service Records** – Books, records, or archival materials detailing naval personnel involved in the Crimean War and the Baltic Campaign.
   
4. **Naval Biographies or Encyclopedias** – These may include references to individual sailors and their service during specific campaigns.

You can access the Royal Navy's service records and other detailed historical documents through **The National Archives (UK)** or consult secondary sources like books on the **Crimean War** or **HMS Cornwallis** for more specific information. 

If you are looking for information on **Chief Petty Officer Watts**, I recommend searching through these primary sources or military databases. If you have more details (like a full name or a specific time frame), it might be possible to find more concrete references.

 

[Farkas]

Hi Stefan,

interesting results youve got above, I’ve got access to ‘Grok’ which is the twitter chat AI, I’ll have to remember to use it.

 

So, back to your guy,

… I like the sound of Navy.

 

i’d already found this since my last post 👇

from a list of ww1 medal abbreviations it does indeed appear as though MEC is mechanic.

 

I did wonder if the British Army had Mechanical Companies in Victorian era, if so I’d expect that they’re most likely recorded as Royal Engineers on awards/medal or in the Army Service Corps.

 

But why not Navy , they were already using ‘big metal boats’ and might well have more specialised positions.

So I’ve just found this structure chart

- notice this at the bottom 👇

‘Captains of parts of the ship’

 

I think that might be the explanation.

A Captain but not in the usual sense of an officer, hence the eligibility for the DCM.

Maybe the ribbon is even correct (a long shot) for a navy award.

Were Sailors eligible for a DCM?

If so. -  Did the Navy have a separate design or the same one you have?

& If the same. -  Are the naval recipients lists available?

 

cheers

tony 🍻

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stefan]

Thanks for the info Tony 👍

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention that Watts was a recipient of the Baltic medal and only Lespersen was for the DCM  🙂 

 

DCM: "CAP. MEC.  C.LESPERSEN  III. MEC. CO."

Baltic medal: "CHIEF P.O.W. WATTS. H.M.S. CORNWALLIS."

 

Back to the digital archives... 😅

 

 

Cheers,

Stefan

 

[SillyOldGrandad]

No DCM awards to RN until 1916 (Royal Naval Division) and 1942 (Royal Navy and Royal Air Force). RN had the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal instead.       Pete.

[Farkas]

21 hours ago, SillyOldGrandad said:

No DCM awards to RN until 1916 (Royal Naval Division) and 1942 (Royal Navy and Royal Air Force). RN had the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal instead.       Pete.

Nice one Pete, a shame cos I thought I might have had it 🥴

Cheers tony 🍻