Order of the Rose Brasil

[922F]

Hi Ricky,

Thank you for this wonderful posting including Poliano's work/illustration. People who told me about a green enamel insert being the difference between grand cross and grand dignitary stars include Robert McNamara {died 1996}, Bill Corbin, and George Seymour {died 2004}. All three were/are specialist collectors who began work in the 1940s-50s--McNamara studied Grand Cross awards of all countries, Corbin follows imperial/royal American (Brazil, Haiti, Hawaii, & Mexico) awards, and Seymour speciaized in German States awards but also had experience with more esoteric orders like the Rose. None cited any specific written materials. Colonel Guyadier of Paris told me he didn't know why some stars had green enamel in star crowns but in the 1970s had 5 or 6 stars some with green enamel insert crowns and some without. I myself have seen about 15 Rose stars with crown; I'd guess most had the green enamel crown insert and the balance did not. I recall one star with a red enamel insert either in the Prague castle collection or in a Vienna collection.

Well-known expert Dragomir Acovic published a booklet on the Rose Order in the 1980s, my copy is in storage. I do not remember what he says, if anything, about this issue.

I do not recall what Gritzner or Trost report regarding th Rose Order but will try to find their work along with Acovic's. I would suspect, however, that Poliano used his direct access to Brazilian archives and would be likely the closest to original sources.

Ricky, have you had the opportunity to see original statutes?

Your point on how much someone could spend on insignia may be directly on point. I have read an account by a Russian Grand Duke stating that he received his insignia of the Orders of the Southern Cross and Rose directly from Dom Pedro II so maybe some people did not have to buy their own insignia?

Thank you again for your work on this topic, Ricky, and best regards! 922F

[ricky1972]

Hi 922F,

Yes, I think that Poliano had acess to the original statutes.

There?s a full transcription in his book. Will see at home and then return to you.

I even got a illustration regarding the order?s creation (attributed to Eug?ne de la Michellerie) - will post them later.

About the question regarding if people had to buy their insignia, I got the period prices list and will post it to you.

Look at this pictures taken from a brazilian museum.

There?s no grade attribution on them...and I think that the green (or red) enamel goes in the same way.

Cheers,

Ricardo

[ricky1972]

another one...

[922F]

Hello Ricardo,

Thank you for posting images of these magnificant pieces! These are glorious items! Do you know if the story about Dom Pedro I presenting Amalie with a jewelled set of insignia on her arrival in Brazil is accurate? The story about the Russian Grand Duke and the Order of the Rose and Order of the Southern Cross appears in a book entitled "Once a Grand Duke" written by the Grand Duke himself. If you wish, I can obtain information about the book for you. Thanks again for this thread!

[ricky1972]

Hello 922F,

Let me try to put some additional info about this Order from Poliano?s book. My english is not that much, but I?ll try

- The order was established in october, 17 1829 to celebrate the wedding of D. Pedro I with D. Amelia de Leuchtenberg.

The history says that D. Amelia was wearing a dress with little roses when she arrived in Rio de Janeiro and this gave the Emperor the idea to create a romantic order inspired by the beauty of his future wife. This is very beautiful, but cannot be true because D. Amelia arrived in Rio and the first Orders was awarded on the next day after the wedding.

Monuments were made in all Rio de Janeiro to celebrate the wedding. Many of them had the insignias of the Order of the Southern Cross, Aviz, Christ...

The Order of the Rose was not mentioned in any of these monuments.

On a main square in Rio, was a monument created for the wedding by Grandjean de Montigny, and was written:

Valor (Valour); Lealdade (Loyalty); Prud?ncia (Prudence); Const?ncia (????); Amor (Love) and Fidelidade (Fidelity)

The author think that the IDEA of the Order happened on those days, and the creation of the insignias happened later.

- Many people think that the order was created by Debret, but Imperial Museum in Petropolis have some official drawings signed by Eug?ne de la Michellerie and Pezerat. (I?ll post a picture later)

- During the War of Triple Alliance (1864 to 1870) were distributed the majority of the Orders awarded.

- The people awarded with the order had to buy their insignia. The only exception was those awarded for bravery in combat and for foreigners.

Gr?o Cruz (any order).................630$000

Grande Dignit?rio Order of the Rose..................500$000

Dignit?rio Order of the Rose / Order of the Southern Cross.........390$000

Comendador Order of the Rose...............280$000

Oficial Order of the Rose / Order of the Southern Cross.......220$000

Comendador (any order)............180$000

Cavaleiro (any order)...........110$000

Here?s the numbers of orders awarded:

[Hugh]

Hello 922F,

Let me try to put some additional info about this Order from Poliano?s book. My english is not that much, but I?ll try

- The order was established in october, 17 1829 to celebrate the wedding of D. Pedro I with D. Amelia de Leuchtenberg.

The history says that D. Amelia was wearing a dress with little roses when she arrived in Rio de Janeiro and this gave the Emperor the idea to create a romantic order inspired by the beauty of his future wife. This is very beautiful, but cannot be true because D. Amelia arrived in Rio and the first Orders was awarded on the next day after the wedding.

Monuments were made in all Rio de Janeiro to celebrate the wedding. Many of them had the insignias of the Order of the Southern Cross, Aviz, Christ...

The Order of the Rose was not mentioned in any of these monuments.

On a main square in Rio, was a monument created for the wedding by Grandjean de Montigny, and was written:

Valor (Valour); Lealdade (Loyalty); Prud?ncia (Prudence); Const?ncia (????); Amor (Love) and Fidelidade (Fidelity)

The author think that the IDEA of the Order happened on those days, and the creation of the insignias happened later.

- Many people think that the order was created by Debret, but Imperial Museum in Petropolis have some official drawings signed by Eug?ne de la Michellerie and Pezerat. (I?ll post a picture later)

- During the War of Triple Alliance (1864 to 1870) were distributed the majority of the Orders awarded.

- The people awarded with the order had to buy their insignia. The only exception was those awarded for bravery in combat and for foreigners.

Gr?o Cruz (any order).................630$000

Grande Dignit?rio Order of the Rose..................500$000

Dignit?rio Order of the Rose / Order of the Southern Cross.........390$000

Comendador Order of the Rose...............280$000

Oficial Order of the Rose / Order of the Southern Cross.......220$000

Comendador (any order)............180$000

Cavaleiro (any order)...........110$000

Great stuff, Ricky, Keep up the good work. We'd never find it up here.

Hugh

[ricky1972]

Thanks Hugh!

Here?s a wonderful image for your viewing pleasure.

The original statutes of the Order of the Rose and some studies signed by Eug?ne de la Michellerie and Pezerat.

Most of collectors assume that the aproved project was this one with some little changes.

These documents are on the Imperial Museum, Petropolis, Rio de Janeiro (http://www.museuimperial.gov.br/tour_museu_eng.htm)

[ricky1972]

Let me finish with a beautiful image of Lu?s Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias (August 25, 1803?May 7, 1880)

Considered one of the most important heroes in Brazilian military history, Caxias fought in the Argentina-Brazil War, the War of Tatters, and, most notably, in the War of Triple Alliance. He was the only non-royal Brazilian to receive the honorary title of Duke.

The Brazilian holiday Dia do Soldado (Portuguese, "Day of the Soldier"), celebrated on his birthday, August 25, and the cities of Duque de Caxias and Caxias do Sul are named in his honor. He is honoured as the Patron of the Brazilian Army.

[Hugh]

Let me finish with a beautiful image of Lu?s Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias (August 25, 1803?May 7, 1880)

Considered one of the most important heroes in Brazilian military history, Caxias fought in the Argentina-Brazil War, the War of Tatters, and, most notably, in the War of Triple Alliance. He was the only non-royal Brazilian to receive the honorary title of Duke.

The Brazilian holiday Dia do Soldado (Portuguese, "Day of the Soldier"), celebrated on his birthday, August 25, and the cities of Duque de Caxias and Caxias do Sul are named in his honor. He is honoured as the Patron of the Brazilian Army.

And isn't there also a street in Ipanema named for him? Seems to me my favorite hotel was on or near it.

Hugh

[922F]

Ricardo,

Thank you for this wonderful information! This clarifies and expands our knowledge immensely. I have not yet had a chance to look in Trost, Gritzner or Acovic but will report what they said next week.

[James Hoard]

Sorry for my ignorance, but are these lists of awards according to the relative precedence of the awards?

Did they rank as follows:

1. Pedro I

2. St James of the Sword

3 Christ

4. Rose

5. (Southern) Cross

5. St Benedict of Aviz

What about the Order of the Tower and Sword, was that not also awarded in Brazil by the emperors?

Cheers,

James

[g_deploige]

On the next link of medalnet you can see a nice article

http://www.medalnet.net/brazil_rose.htm

There you can olse see a breaststrar with green in the crown, as mentioned before in this topic

Nice reading

Guy :cheers:

[ricky1972]

Hello James,

They?re not listed by relevance.

The Emperor had many orders at His disposal, but the Order of the Rose and the Southern Cross were more used and considered "true brazilian" orders.

The portuguese orders were more used during D. Pedro I period, before the independence.

The Tower and Sword along with Vila Vi?osa were created in Brasil, but under the rules of Portugal by D. Joao.

Cheers,

Ricardo

[ricky1972]

On the next link of medalnet you can see a nice article

http://www.medalnet.net/brazil_rose.htm

There you can olse see a breaststrar with green in the crown, as mentioned before in this topic

Nice reading

Guy

Hello Guy,

In fact a nice article!!

Many breast stars have that green enamel. Many don?t.

Cheers,

Ricardo

[ricky1972]

Here?s a small correction about the combination of insignia to determine the Order degree:

-Gr?o Cruz - insignias with crown (collar OR sash / breast star)

-Grande Dignit?rio - insignias with crown (large neck badge and breast star)

-Dignit?rio - insignias without crown (neck badge and breast star)

-Comendador - insignias without crown (simple medal suspended by ribbon)

-Oficial- insignia without crown (breast star)

-Cavaleiro - insignia with crown (simple medal suspended by ribbon)

Thanks,