IRISH 1916 SOMME CELEBRATION 2006

[Kev in Deva]

Taken from the RTE We bpage at: http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0701/somme.html

Ceremonies take place on Somme anniversary

01 July 2006 23:16

Ceremonies have taken place in Ireland and abroad to mark the start of the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme.

President Mary McAleese was among the dignitaries to lay a wreath at the War Memorial at Islandbridge in Dublin in honour of Irishmen who died in the battle.

Over 200 members of the Defence Forces took part, the first large-scale involvement of Irish troops in ceremonies to mark the First World War battle.

The Minister for Education, Mary Hanafin, represented the Government at ceremonies which also took place this morning in Thiepval and Guillemont in France.

More than 3,000 Irish men were among the half a million soldiers who died in the battle in northeastern France which began on 1 July, 1916.

END OF REPORT.

Its about time Ireland remembered her brave war dead with pride instead of shame, May God Bless them

Kevin in Deva

[Daniel Murphy]

I wholeheartedly agree. They performed their duty as best they could and when they came home many were vilified and murdered as traitors. 35,000 of them never came home. After the Easter Rising in 1916, an Irish soldier was much more likely to recieve punishment. The Irish units only made up 2% of the army but accounted for 8% of all death sentences. 239 in all. Subsequently it has been found that a majority of all troops executed were suffering from shell shock, which was not fully understood at the time. The British government then downplayed the Irish soldiers role in the war due to what was happening in Ireland postwar.

Dan Murphy

[Kev in Deva]

I wholeheartedly agree. They performed their duty as best they could and when they came home many were vilified and murdered as traitors. 35,000 of them never came home. After the Easter Rising in 1916, an Irish soldier was much more likely to recieve punishment. The Irish units only made up 2% of the army but accounted for 8% of all death sentences. 239 in all. Subsequently it has been found that a majority of all troops executed were suffering from shell shock, which was not fully understood at the time. The British government then downplayed the Irish soldiers role in the war due to what was happening in Ireland postwar.

Dan Murphy

Hallo Dan,

While I agree with some of the points raised, Irish Units might have made up 2% of the Regimental Units in the British Army but a far larger number of Irishmen were in Welsh, Scots, and English, Regiments.

I was refering more to after World War 1 when DeValera sent his "Bully Boys" to the Commemoration ceremonies around the country to stir up trouble, much in the same way Adolf used the S.A. in the early days of the Reich, DeValera wanted no sympathy for the "traitors" who joined the British Army to fight against the Kaiser (and not for love of the King) in my research connected with my book I have found reference to whole units of the Irish Volunteers (pre 1916) and marching en-mass and joining the colours, escorted to the train station by their Volunteer Bands to go fight against the Prussians, what slowed down British recruiting in Ireland was the way the British handled the 1916 Rebelion and the execution of the leaders.

Facts have since shown the Irish executed more Irishmen for "offences" commited in the Civil War, than the British executed for the 1916 Rebelion in Dublin.

The saddest part for me is the fact that the brave Irish men who served in France & Flanders, Salonika, Gallipoli, Mesopatamia etc, and survived to come home to Ireland, were denied the chances to gather at Old Comrades Associations, to reminise about old times, to collect or even wear their medals for service "In the Great War for Civilisation", Letters, Postcards, Photographs, were dumped to spare any embarresment to the family and conform with the New Republic of Ireland.

Even today this has to be a missing chapter in Irish history, not many places have a memorial to the men who died in WW1, I recall a monument in Sligo and of course the one in Dublin at Islanbridge. and if my memory is correct a plaque in the train station in Galway to members of the railway service who were killed in WW1.

A couple of years ago there was a project started to erect a War Memorial in Castlebar, Co. Mayo, to men from the town who died in WW1, WW2, and other conflicts including UN service, again if my memory serves me well it was to be erected in the old Catholic graveyard away from the "Mall" in the center of town, which boasts a fine green and was traditionaly where the Regimental played cricket and military bands played and next to the Infantry and Artillery / Cavalry barracks.

Kevin in Deva

[Ingsoc]

No doubt that the Irish veterans was an embaresment to the Irish republic, the fact that so many choose to volunteer certinly suggest some kind of loyalty to the British crown and hurt the "official" history of the republic.

[Kev in Deva]

I wholeheartedly agree. They performed their duty as best they could and when they came home many were vilified and murdered as traitors. 35,000 of them never came home. After the Easter Rising in 1916, an Irish soldier was much more likely to recieve punishment. The Irish units only made up 2% of the army but accounted for 8% of all death sentences. 239 in all. Subsequently it has been found that a majority of all troops executed were suffering from shell shock, which was not fully understood at the time. The British government then downplayed the Irish soldiers role in the war due to what was happening in Ireland postwar.

Dan Murphy

Hallo Dan on this site http://www.greatwar.nl/ under the heading HERIATIGE OF THE GREAT WAR "Shot at dawn" it gives the number of those executed by British Court Martial at 306 soldiers, among them were 25 Canadians, 22 Irishmen, and 5 New Zelanders

Even for all the time I lived in Ireland and all the research I have done for my book I never came across any reference to 239 Irish Executions

Kevin in Deva

Edited July 4, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

No doubt that the Irish veterans was an embaresment to the Irish republic, the fact that so many choose to volunteer certinly suggest some kind of loyalty to the British crown and hurt the "official" history of the republic.

Irish National enlistment in 1914 -- and its forgotten causes

The Greening of the Khaki

By Jim Woods

The majority of people who have read or heard about Ireland over the last thirty-five years have had their minds filled with gory pictures of explosions, murder and mayhem. Many people, when considering Irish history, see a small nation fighting for its ?freedom? from the ?brutal tyranny? of an Imperial neighbour.

Many have heard about Tone, Pearse, Connolly and all those ?patriots? who made the ultimate sacrifice to ?free us all from the oppressive British Crown?. But there was an even greater ?blood sacrifice? made for the cause of Irish freedom, which Republican propaganda has caused to be largely forgotten by the Irish people. This sacrifice was made by the men of the Irish regiments, which fought so bravely in the various theatres of the Great War.

Among these men were Catholics and Protestants, fighting side by side against a common foe. Those who were Catholic, and wore the khaki uniform of the British army, have often been considered by Republicans as anglicised Irishmen, traitors to their country, and being more British than the British themselves.

Not true.

These men were as patriotically Irish as any Republican and fought for Irish freedom more bravely than those who foolishly died in a vain and stupid effort to free Ireland through bloody revolution.

There is no doubt that Catholic Ireland had suffered under British rule. There were the Penal Laws, the unnecessary starvation of the famine, the Evictions, the Property Laws and a range of other devices placed against their progress. Under O?Connell and Parnell to win their freedom by political means, and by 1913 the Nationalist Irish Parliamentary Party under John Redmond was a major force within Westminster. The Liberal government was obliged to listen to their counsel and the possibility of freedom through a ?Home Rule Act? had almost come to fruition, despite the opposition of the Protestant minority inhabiting the north of the country.

And yet, despite all the anti-Catholic laws and actions, and the constant delays to the formation of an Irish Parliament, Irishmen flocked to the army as volunteers after the outbreak of war in August 1914. Why?

The answer can be found in the life, which the average Irish Catholic worker lined in Ireland. To find the answer we must therefore consider his social, economic, political and religious background. These areas define the lifestyle a person lives, and a combination of these areas has a direct bearing on the decisions that a person makes.

Huge Gap in Wealth and Lifestyle

In general the average Irish Catholic labourer made up the bulk of those Irish soldiers who fought in the trenches of the Great War. With regard to the strata of society occupied by such men, it was definitely of the lower variety. They had their world shaped and controlled by events dominated by those in the social strata above them. These upper classes strove to maintain the ?status quo? in society, within which a huge gap in wealth and lifestyle separated the groups. Just like society in Britain as a whole there was a deep gulf between the working classes and the rest of society, and this was an accepted fact of life. However, unlike Britain, Ireland was not industrialised to any great extent and people?s attitudes tended to be more parochial. In simple terms there was no united and militant working class to stand for the improvement of the worker?s lot.

In Ireland before the Great War the labouring class made up the bulk of those who were unemployed or, at least under-employed. Generally they lived dangerously close to total poverty, earning well below the average wage in Britain, and made no financial contribution to the government?s coffers by way of tax. In squalid, over populated and cramped communities among the narrow streets of Ireland?s towns and cities these people were further handicapped by illiteracy or, at best, semi-literacy.

For such people there was very little if any prospect of being able to drag themselves out of this lifestyle and satisfy any social or economic aspirations that they may have held. In their case there was a definite lack of opportunity to improve their social status, or that of their children.

Ignorance, poverty and lack of hope led to an apathy among the Irish working classes. To help relieve their condition many turned to alcohol and other vices, much to the despair of the clergy, who were concerned about the unemployment situation, though not enough to wish to disturb the existing social ?status quo,? of which they were an integral part. There was, of course, the old cure of emigration and this was officially encouraged by local and national leadership In Ireland many took up the opportunity to emigrate to other lands, where many prospered, though many more did not fare so well.

Hard Existence

Those who remained in Ireland continued to face a hard existence, ever striving to avoid the constant presence of pauperism. Despite their poverty the respectable Irish working class would do anything necessary to avoid falling into that abyss. Paupers at this time were obliged to live under the charity of the wealthier classes, forming a group of third-class citizens without dignity and deprived of even their most basic rights.

For many working class men the prospect of their families falling into the trap of pauperism was enough to encourage them to enlist in the army and benefit from its regular pay and allowances.

Within the cities and towns of Ireland the working classes generally lived a cluttered existence. Usually each family rented a room in the small, dilapidated houses, squeezed together in a maze of narrow streets, lanes and entries. And yet, these communities were close-knit, static groups of people in which good neighbourliness and friendships were forged and grew strong.

As today, in Ireland, religion and politics go hand in hand and are not easily separated. Prior to the Great War, just as much as the present day, the political divisions in Ireland followed closely the religious divide. Many in Ireland claim Irish Nationalism to be the emblem of the Catholics, and that this has affected the social and political behaviour of Catholics over the last two hundred years. However, in the years prior to 1914, the attitudes of the Catholic working class combined with the existing class structures to make a potent political mix within the government of the United Kingdom. It was a political mix that the middle and upper class Catholics wanted to harness for their own aggrandisement.

The upper and middle class within Irish Society shared a dominant status and controlled both political and economic power in the land. The nationalist politicians focussed their attention on the perceived differences between the average Irish worker and the British. By clever oratorical skills they obscured the aspects of common heritage between these two groups, while disguising the social and economic gaps between themselves and their audiences.

Proud Part of the British Empire

Admittedly very few Irish Catholics were not fooled by such propaganda. These people were proud to be a part of the British Empire and were very willing to defend it when the call came in 1914. In fact some prominent nationalist politicians were somewhat honoured by the apparently honoured place held by Ireland within the British Empire.

Nevertheless, service within the British Army still aroused latent conflicts within the minds of many Catholic Irishmen at this time. The attitude of those Irish men, who had already donned the uniform of the British Army were far from simple, whatever the reasons behind their enlistment. They could quite happily celebrate the efforts of those fellow countrymen who had fought in the various wars of the British Empire, but they could just as easily denounce the British army as an occupying force of tyrannical power.

One well-known Irishman who fought in the Great War, John Lucy, accurately recorded the conflict he had felt when he had enlisted in the army. Though he would have preferred to pledge himself to serve the cause of Ireland, he felt honour bound to Britain by his oath as a soldier. He undoubtedly would have wished that Britain had treated Ireland much better in the past, but he felt no less Irish or catholic because of his enlistment. In fact it appears that, overall, nationalist disapproval of the British army carried little force with those Irish men who were already serving in the pre-war army. Such men were usually poor, apolitical and had joined the army as a matter of practicality rather than political ideology. These men cared little for either nationalism or imperialism, and they saw the army solely as a practical way out of their poverty stricken lifestyle.

Mobilisation in August 1914 saw British and Irish regular troops stationed in Ireland being sent to the front. British territorials, who were charged with the home defence of Ireland, subsequently replaced these men. During the years prior to the war the use of militia and volunteers to create a special reserve in Britain to support the regular army, and the formation of territorial force for home defence, was not extended to Ireland. The powers that be within the War Office did not trust the Irish with their own home defence and thus delayed any decision until it was too late. Thus, when war came and Irish men were needed to fill the ranks, community leaders, clergy and politicians, were recruited to lead the recruitment campaign.

The Persuave Voice of the Clergy

The Catholic religion was central in the lives of the majority of Irishmen in the first half of the twentieth century and, as such was their standing within the community that their views had a significant impact on the attitudes of the devout and practising Catholics, whose faith was also exploited for recruitment and propaganda purposes. Calls to action in defence of ?Poor Little Catholic Belgium? being just one effort to obtain the sympathy of the working class Irish Catholic.

The religious role and status of the priests made these men social leaders and the ordinary working class Catholics were almost in awe of them. The labourer?s lack of sound education obliged them to depend upon their priests in various practical matters and gave them almost a mystical aura to their parishioners.

In response many priests developed a paternal attitude towards the lower classes, who were expected to show due respect by doffing their caps or covering their heads. This status, which was accorded to priests, was important in the conditioning of the Irish working class to enlist in the army when war was declared.

To the persuasive voices of the clergy were added the equally persuasive voices of the nationalist politicians, eager to exploit the deeply held nationalist sympathies of the working class Irish. Nationalism served to make the community a more homogenous unit and strengthen common loyalties. Most importantly it also encouraged a powerful loyalty to the constitutionalist cause espoused by the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, John Redmond M.P. Such was the potency of this loyalty at the time of the outbreak of war that it overrode any interests that would encourage them against enlistment after Redmond?s call to arms.

The spread of militant Trade Unionism through Britain prior to the war had little effect in Ireland. It represented only a small fraction of the unskilled Irish labourers, who made up a large proportion of Irish society. Moreover, the Trade Union movement was perceived as being a major threat to the existing social order in Ireland and, therefore, invoked a large amount of hostility among the middle and upper classes. The Catholic clergy, in particular, could not voice support for a political programme, which refused them the traditional status of mediator between the classes.

As a result of all this, on the eve of the First World War, Irish labour was much more docile than its counterpart in Britain. Catholic Ireland was almost a one party state with Redmond?s IPP exercising its monopoly of political power to stifle any diversity there might be in political expression.

Redmond's Call to Arms

Confidently, on 3rd August 1914, John Redmond told the House of Commons in London that British troops could safely be removed from Ireland, which would be defended by ?her own sons?. On 16th September newspapers in Ireland published his call to arms and, four days later, at Woodenbridge he told a mass gathering of followers to ?account for yourselves as men, not only in Ireland itself, but wherever the firing line extends.?

Subsequently, at the Dublin Mansion House, on 26th September, Redmond publicly supported Prime Minister Asquith?s call for Army recruits and he asked that an ?Irish Brigade? be formed as part of the Expeditionary Force fighting abroad. Despite the political deadlock over the amendment to the ?Home Rule Bill? proposed by the House of Lord?s, which called for the permanent exclusion of six northern counties, Redmond?s prestige and personal influence was at its peak among the nationalist working class. To these unskilled men the army?s pay and allowances system was a definite attraction.

Whereas skilled soldiers could earn up to six shillings a day (30p), the normal pay of an average soldier was usually one shilling and nine pence (9p). In present day terms it does not seem to be much, but in 1914 it was a major inducement for some Irishmen to enlist. Army pay and allowances provided Irish working class families with a regular income for the first time. In Ireland this income was even more attractive in a society where the standards of living and rates of pay were lower than those in Britain.

In conclusion the main cause of Irish Catholics joining the British forces in 1914 was the living conditions, which they had to endure at that time. There was no thought of betraying Ireland by donning the uniform of an ?occupying power?. They were concerned mainly with the survival of their children, the promise of a better life, freedom from the indignity of poverty, and the fulfilment of the British promise of ?Home Rule? for all of Ireland.

Taken from: Irish Soldiers: Traitors or True Patriots at: http://www.greatwar.nl/

[PKeating]

When the surrendered men of the Irish Citizen Army and the Irish Volunteer Force - collectively described as the IRA - were marched away from the GPO and other strongholds like Boland's Bakery, they had to be protected by their guards from a furious mob of Dubliners, many of them wives of men serving on the Western Front. Ironically, many of the 20,000 British soldiers mobilised to put down the Rising were themselves Irishmen and had served in the IVF until their founding leader, John Redmond, the chief advocate of Home Rule, had encouraged them to enlist in the British Army. Of 150,000 Irish Volunteers in 1914, just 11,000 were left by 1916. Less than 2,000 IVF and ICA men are reckoned to have been actively involved in the Rising.

Irish public opinion in general was against any armed uprising. Even the leading Irish nationalist broadsheet, the Irish Independent called for the execution of leaders and key players in the revolution. However, British politicians like Lloyd George and Asquith were unconvinced that having the leaders tried under military law was a good idea but allowed the courts martial to go ahead anyway. It was a decision they would regret as the extent of public revulsion in Britain and Ireland at the executions became clear. The appalling circumstances of the execution on 12.5.1916 of James Connolly really tipped the scales and Asquith's government ordered a halt to the executions and further ordered that remaining cases be tried in civilian rather than military courts. Connolly had a gangrenous leg caused by neglect in prison of the wound he had sustained in the GPO and was feverish and delirious when pulled from his deathbed, dragged to the yard, tied to a chair and shot. Some say that the order to fire had to repeated to the members of the firing squad.

As a footnote, Sir Roger Casement, the Irish-born former British diplomat who had exposed Belgian excesses in the Congo and who had travelled to Germany in 1915 to try to recruit Irish POWs to a German-backed Irish Legion was hanged for high treason on 3.8.1916 in London, having organised an arms shipment to the rebels from Germany. However, Casement had made his opposition to the Easter Rising very clear, feeling that without direct German aid, it was a doomed enterprise. In the end, though, as a man of honour, he followed the shipment of 20,000 rifles with ammunition to Kerry, being landed from a U-Boot, and was quickly captured. The ship carrying the arms was intercepted by the Royal Navy and scuttled by its captain.

The Easter Rising was heroic and well-executed, in Dublin at any rate. However, it was doomed to failure and one could say of its leaders that they were criminally reckless in going ahead with it. On the other hand, the public relations catastrophe provoked by the executions of the rebel leaders and others served to polarise Irish popular sentiment, hitherto unsympathetic to armed rebellion, generating a wave of sympathy for Ireland's 'glorious martyrs' and revulsion for 'cruel Britannia'. It was the beginning of the end of the British Empire, although Ireland would not become a republic until 1948 and is still not quite 'free', depending, of course, on how one views things.

PK

[Guest Rick Research]

I had no idea that World War One was a "lost chapter" in Ireland. After all, Ireland was PART of the United Kingdom then. My own ancestors had held on through the potato famine and were late arrivals by American Irish standards, only turning up 100+ years ago. The younger members thus went into the U.S. rather than British army.

Quite odd, since the campaigns of the Victorian era were certainly considered as common experiences. My great-grandparents never got over the joy and celebrations. fireworks and public response to the relief of Mafeking during the Boer War. For them, it was like the first moon landing, apparently.

What a shame that those who went through the World War are now all dead before anyone recognizes that their shared history was... shared history.

"It's a long long way from Tipperary...."

[Kev in Deva]

What a shame that those who went through the World War are now all dead before anyone recognizes that their shared history was... shared history.

"It's a long long way from Tipperary...."

Hallo Rick,

thanks for your post, thats one of the main reasons I am searching for a publisher, the amount of information I uncovered (and not just WW1) while doing my research was phenominal, and that was only for the area of county Mayo, West of Ireland, just to thing there is another 25 Counties of the Republic, with as yet undiscovered information, unfortunatly as of yet I have had no response to my post with regards a publisher except Robin and the British Military publisher there suggested I get an Irish Publisher as it was too specialist for them Despite it covering the time from 1750 to 1922 when the country was under the control of the British!!

Kevin in Deva.

Edited July 9, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[PKeating]

Kev,

You should try Leo Cooper, in the UK, or one of those imprints. There are also several publishers in the States who would be interested, I am sure. I will have a think and send you a shortlist in due course.

Regards,

PK

[Kev in Deva]

Kev,

You should try Leo Cooper, in the UK, or one of those imprints. There are also several publishers in the States who would be interested, I am sure. I will have a think and send you a shortlist in due course.

Regards,

PK

Hallo PK, thanks for the reply Kev in Deva

[Ardent]

Taken from the RTE We bpage at: http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0701/somme.html

Ceremonies take place on Somme anniversary

01 July 2006 23:16

Ceremonies have taken place in Ireland and abroad to mark the start of the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme.

President Mary McAleese was among the dignitaries to lay a wreath at the War Memorial at Islandbridge in Dublin in honour of Irishmen who died in the battle.

Over 200 members of the Defence Forces took part, the first large-scale involvement of Irish troops in ceremonies to mark the First World War battle.

The Minister for Education, Mary Hanafin, represented the Government at ceremonies which also took place this morning in Thiepval and Guillemont in France.

More than 3,000 Irish men were among the half a million soldiers who died in the battle in northeastern France which began on 1 July, 1916.

END OF REPORT.

Its about time Ireland remembered her brave war dead with pride instead of shame, May God Bless them

Kevin in Deva

It's a shame that in 2004 Mary McAleese chose 11th November for her Inauguration and virtually drove past the war memorial without even acknowledging it

There was no recognition of this date on a day when the whole of Ireland's "upper echelons" was out in force for a national day

[Kev in Deva]

It's a shame that in 2004 Mary McAleese chose 11th November for her Inauguration and virtually drove past the war memorial without even acknowledging it

There was no recognition of this date on a day when the whole of Ireland's "upper echelons" was out in force for a national day

Hallo Ardent

with regards 2004 it would have fell short of the 90th Aniversary, which had a more significant meaning in regards of planned ceremonies.

And a Presidential Inauguration would have been a quite seperate ceremony, is there any evidence that she choose that date personaly or was just following protocol?? I dont believe for a minute she planned it as a slight for Irelands World War I war dead, seeing as this date was seldom celebrated anyway in the Republic of Ireland, thanks to DeValera's bullyboys causing problems at the Island-bridge celebrations, after he said he wanted no celebration for the men who were traitors to Ireland, people stopped attending WW1 Commemoratons around the Republic of Ireland.

Kevin in Deva

Edited November 25, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[CalH]

I've just tried to read the new book "The Somme" and had to quit half way through, the numbers of men killed was just too dismal. My question is, after the first day's slaughter, why didn't the troops mutiny? Certainly they had a much reason as did the French after the Chemin de Dames fiasco. The number of Irish killed by British Artillery make today's "friendly fire" incidents seem trivial.

Taken from the RTE We bpage at: http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0701/somme.html

Ceremonies take place on Somme anniversary

01 July 2006 23:16

Ceremonies have taken place in Ireland and abroad to mark the start of the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme.

President Mary McAleese was among the dignitaries to lay a wreath at the War Memorial at Islandbridge in Dublin in honour of Irishmen who died in the battle.

Over 200 members of the Defence Forces took part, the first large-scale involvement of Irish troops in ceremonies to mark the First World War battle.

The Minister for Education, Mary Hanafin, represented the Government at ceremonies which also took place this morning in Thiepval and Guillemont in France.

More than 3,000 Irish men were among the half a million soldiers who died in the battle in northeastern France which began on 1 July, 1916.

END OF REPORT.

Its about time Ireland remembered her brave war dead with pride instead of shame, May God Bless them

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

I've just tried to read the new book "The Somme" and had to quit half way through, the numbers of men killed was just too dismal. My question is, after the first day's slaughter, why didn't the troops mutiny? Certainly they had a much reason as did the French after the Chemin de Dames fiasco. The number of Irish killed by British Artillery make today's "friendly fire" incidents seem trivial.

Hallo CalH,

strange as it may sound, the idea of mutiny probably never occured to them at the time, most of the troops (including the Irish) were volunteers and were prepaired to see it through to the bitter end.

Also the fact that although there were horrendous losses on the ground that first day the enormity of the casualties would not have been known or comprehended by the shell-shocked tommies of the front line, for them they seldom knew what the big picture was, their world was to their immediate front, the flanks and the rear.

British Arty took out as many Scots, Welch, and English soldiers as the Irish, the shells were not selective upon whom they fell.

It has only been years after the event all the figures have been collected and put into print that we fully understand the futile loss or heroic glory of their sacrifice, depending from ones point of view.

Kevin in Deva,