Prussian Pilot Badge

[gor]

Silver and finely detailed.Is it OK?

[Steve K.]

Not good! It's pretending to be a Meybaur. Details to the plane and buildings are different...although the shrubbery looks good! (Fine detailed cut-outs are modern, I think, and it looks to be artificially aged).

[Stogieman]

Hi Igor, I would not be so quick to dismiss this one outright. It's obviously based on Meybauer dies. the question becomes whether Meybauer issued/made/sold "issue" clich? (stamped) badges. The cut-outs do not bother me, they seem clean and correct and well-done. Since I found an actual photo of a cut-out PB being worn ca. 1918-20.......

The detail would be extraordinary for a fake.......

[Daniel Murphy]

I would say the reason it is cliche is because it IS a cut-out. To make a badge like this hollow with a backer would be extremely difficult and time consuming. The same cuts would have to be made on the back and then silver sheet would be required to cover the openings between the front and back. Or a new die could be made to do this, but dies are expensive and it would not be worth it just to be able to sell a few badges. To make this from a massive constructed badge would be somewhat more simple, but would also be more time consuming due to having to cut through a thicker metal. Time is money, therefore it would be prohibitably expensive to make it any other way.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 10, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Steve K.]

If it is real Meybauer, it would be the first time I've seen a stamped Meybauer, and first time I've seen a Meybauer with a round (needle) pin.

Is there any provenance to the badge?

Edited July 11, 2006 by Steve K.

[gor]

Thanks all . I have tried to make better pictures by dig. camera.

http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11cn3.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=24uw.jpg

http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37oa.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42fk.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=57xe.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=66lu.jpg

http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=75su1.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=82kc.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=92or.jpg

[gor]

The badge came from old collection with another items.

[Stogieman]

Give me a bit gents while I argue this one out with myself. report/analysis to follow soon. Thanks, kinda swamped at the office at the moment.

[Steve K.]

gor

Thank you for the detailed photos....I stand behind my original assessment!

(the knights of ni would salute your shrubbery...although I am no shrubber)

It does not age as I think silver (or silver alloy) should age. Look to the pin!

Kindest Regards,

Stephen

[Stogieman]

OK, a point by point comparison of Gor's badge with a "textbook" Meybauer silver badge reveals far too many discrepencies. I will agree with Steve that it's most likely a new, laser-cut fake. Very well done. But not quite a match.

The argument could be made that a different die was used by Meybauer to make clich? badges, but I doubt the design and characteristics of so, so many items would be so, so different.

My vote would be not real Gor.

Having said this, I think we need to go through a process when these (ever increasing supply of) new fake badges appear. It's not sufficient to just say fake. Steve mentioned some valid points with respects to the pin, but it would be foolish to assume Meybauer would use the same style of pin on two different style of badges. The color of the metal doesn't bother me as I would NOT expect a clich? badge to be of silver. An unwise durability choice in a single, thin, stamped sheet of metal. But rather a tin/steel badge that was then overwashed with a silver frost would be more likely, like the Juncker badges.

Even the Juncker Air Gunner Badges bear very minor differences in die characteristics and pin construction. The issue AG's were not silver, but they did bear identical maker marks (excluding the 800 content mark).

[Steve K.]

....Silver, silver alloy, silver wash, or any metal will not age in this fashion. The applied agent is very convincing, but there are patterns to its deposition that point to "unnatural aging". Look to the pin! The pin is important here because it's metal faces the obverse and reverse over a very short distance (the close-up shots show this better).

Also, the lazing arcs the metal in tight spots especially at corners and leaves a black residue (look where the tabs connect the wings to the wreath and the entire reverse of the plane). This is a key to spotting these fakes.

SO this is a case where the details of the fake are better than an original!

Steve

Edited July 12, 2006 by Steve K.