Von Richtofen Crash Site

[Christophe]

On the occasion of my recent trip in the Somme region, I paid a visit to the Red Baron crash site in Vaux-sur-Somme.

Manfred Alfred Freiherr von Richthofen (2 May 1892 - 21 April 1918), the Red Baron, is still regarded today as the "ace of aces". He won 80 air combats during World War I.

The Red Baron met his death on April 21, 1918 from a single bullet, while flying over Morlancourt Ridge, near the Somme River, as he was in aerial combat. At the time he had been pursuing a Sopwith Camel piloted by a Canadian, Lieutenant Wilfrid "Wop" May of No. 209 Squadron, Royal Air Force. In turn the baron was chased by a Camel piloted by a school friend of May, Captain Arthur "Roy" Brown;In an effort to get away from his pursuer, Richtofen had dived down to tree top height near the French town of Sailly-Laurette. With the Somme canal beneath him. Directly to the north of Vaux-Sur-Somme up the ridge is the Saint Collette brickworks.

During the phases of combat, the Red Baron turned to check the tail of his plane, that is, in the direction of Brown. He was then caught by the bullet, shot from behind and below, which passed diagonally through his chest.

Von Richthofen then made a hasty but controlled landing, in a field on a hill near the Bray-Corbie road, just north of the village of Vaux-sur-Somme, in a sector controlled by the Australian Imperial Force (AIF). His Fokker was not damaged by the landing. One account claims that von Richthofen died a few moments after Allied soldiers reached the plane.

No. 3 Squadron (3 Sqn) of the Australian Flying Corps, the nearest Allied air unit, assumed responsibility for the Baron's remains.

The identity of the person who shot the baron remains unknown; 0.303 ammunition was the standard ammunition for all machine guns and rifles used by British Empire forces during World War I. It is now considered all but certain by historians, doctors, and ballistics experts that von Richthofen was killed by an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner, as the wound through his body indicated that it had been caused by a bullet moving in an upward motion, providing ample evidence for a shot coming from the ground.

I have found an interesting article here :

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/12/25/13258/202

Ch.

[Christophe]

Here is the field where its red tri-plane crashed. The pannel indicates the exact location.

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Christophe]

Another view of the field with the Saint Collette brickworks in the background.

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Christophe]

Saint Colette brickworks.

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Christophe]

The signboard.

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Christophe]

The wreckage od the tri-plane.

Ch.

Pic : Imperial War Museum - London.

[peter monahan]

Christophe

There is a longstanding debate about whether the baron was killed by Brown or by Australian infantry fire from the ground. I haven't read on this at all, never mind in depth, but my impression is that modern scholars tend to accept the "Canadian version".

Whether that's true or not, the seat from the Baron's plane now rests in the Canadian Military Institute in Toronto, Ontario. I've seen it- in fact spent 3 hours "guarding" it at a medal and militaria show years ago. Yes, it has a single bullet hole in the lower back area. Don't ask me whether it was made by a bullet going upwards or downwards, because I don't know!

My two cents worth.

Peter

[Christophe]

Hi Peter,

Many thanks for your comments.

I agree with you about the fact there is a long-standing debate. And my knowledge about this is far from the expertise... I have seen numerous versions; so maybe the truth will be established... maybe not...

It is very interesting to know the seat is in Toronto. I did not know that. It would be a nice challenge to try to bring all remaining parts of the plane together, as they must be spread out all around the world...

Cheers.

Ch.

[Kev in Deva]

Christophe

There is a longstanding debate about whether the baron was killed by Brown or by Australian infantry fire from the ground. I haven't read on this at all, never mind in depth, but my impression is that modern scholars tend to accept the "Canadian version".

Whether that's true or not, the seat from the Baron's plane now rests in the Canadian Military Institute in Toronto, Ontario. I've seen it- in fact spent 3 hours "guarding" it at a medal and militaria show years ago. Yes, it has a single bullet hole in the lower back area. Don't ask me whether it was made by a bullet going upwards or downwards, because I don't know!

My two cents worth.

Peter

Hallo Peter,

I am sure I saw on the "Discovery" Channel, recently shown on Romanian Satalite Channels, that the "Bullet Hole" in the Red Barons seat does not corrospond with the diameter of a 303 bullet, it is in fact a rivet hole, that probably fixed the seat plate to part of the frame, and with the help of a laser device they concluded that both the RAF and Canadian anti-aircraft duo were not responsible for the hit, and that the plane had a 99% percent probability of being hit by the lone Australian Rifleman.

Kevin in Deva.

[Christophe]

Here is the website page of the RCMI (Royal Canadian Military Institute in Toronto), supporting the "Canadian" version...

http://www.rcmi.org/eng/pub/2/page2.asp?t=2&p=2

Ch.

[dond]

Seems to me that in a dogfight planes manuveur in all directions. Up becomes down, etc... so how anyone can say for certain where a particular bullet came from is a bit of a stretch.

[Christophe]

Hallo Peter,

I am sure I saw on the "Discovery" Channel, recently shown on Romanian Satalite Channels, that the "Bullet Hole" in the Red Barons seat does not corrospond with the diameter of a 303 bullet, it is in fact a rivet hole, that probably fixed the seat plate to part of the frame, and with the help of a laser device they concluded that both the RAF and Canadian anti-aircraft duo were not responsible for the hit, and that the plane had a 99% percent probability of being hit by the lone Australian Rifleman.

Kevin in Deva.

Kevin,

Is this this report ?:

"Military Channel

MIL ? Wings at War

Bloody April

The Legendary Red Baron terrorized the Allies during World War I. A British Squadron was formed to kill him, mounting attacks with their Sopwiths. By the end of Bloody April 1917, 150 British planes had been destroyed, yet the Red Baron flew on."

Ch.

[Christophe]

Seems to me that in a dogfight planes manuveur in all directions. Up becomes down, etc... so how anyone can say for certain where a particular bullet came from is a bit of a stretch.

Indeed... Hence the nearly 90 year debate !!!

Ch.

[Kev in Deva]

Kevin,

Is this this report ?:

"Military Channel

MIL ? Wings at War

Bloody April

The Legendary Red Baron terrorized the Allies during World War I. A British Squadron was formed to kill him, mounting attacks with their Sopwiths. By the end of Bloody April 1917, 150 British planes had been destroyed, yet the Red Baron flew on."

Ch.

Hallo Christophe

No thats not it in this series they looked at the deaths of famous people, the Red Baron, Marylin Monroe, Robert Maxwell, Princess Diana etc...etc

In the Red Baron one they looked at all the medical evidence of the inquest into the body, particularly the path of the bullet when it hit the body. Some great computer graphics.

The characteristics of 303 ammunition fired from Rifles and machine guns (I believe the Canadian crew were using a Lewis). They also physicaly tried to pass a 303 round through the hole in the seat and it would not fit.

Also a laser was fitted on a tripod on the ground and fired at a light aeroplane flying a similar course to the Red Barons last flight compiled from obsevation reports filed at the time.

Kevin in Deva

Edited July 14, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Christophe]

Thanks Kevin,

Very interesting. If you have more info or details on this program, please post. These are often broadcasted twice or more...

Cheers.

Ch.

[peter monahan]

Three things - and I'm not taking a position either way on who done it - about this version!

1. Basing the flight path on (written/oral) reports? Hello ? How detailed do you think ground observers bothered to be about planes flying overhead? Remember, no one knew till after that this was anybody important. Dogfights are by definition a series of dives, loops, stalls and so on. I'd suggggest that NOBODY can accurately plot the flight paths of two combat aircraft relative to anything except each other, even with a moviecam, unless both planes are flying against a background of gridded lines or some such.

2. My memory is 20 years old but fairly clear: it wasn't a rivet hole! It a single hole with jagged edges in the lower middle of the seat back - a good 2"-4" from the edges, not in a line of other holes, not machined. Don't know about calibre, didn't have a .303" round with me. But then I'm skeptical about ballistics too: I've seen a helmet with matching holes left and right about 2" (5cm) above the ears owned by the guy whose head the German bullet skated AROUND on it's way through. (ie: in on the right, carved a groove up and over, out on the left - impossible by the "laws of ballistics").

3. If it were a rivet hole then the Baron wasn't shot thru his seat at all, so how did he die? And how would that make it likelier that it was ground fire rather than from a plane? (All the shooters were using .303, right?)

I believe he was killed either by Roy Brown or by ground fire with a preference for choice 1 (A pilot killing a pilot) but I don't care much. However, sloppy forensics and writing in the pursuit of sensational TV and solving "historic mysteries' bug me!

End of rant.

Peter

[Grendell]

A good book on the subject is Red Baron's Last Flight by Norman Franks. After reviewing all the claims on who shot him down, the author credits an Australian infantryman as the most likely to have fired the fatal bullett.

Grendell

[Scott Powell]

I havecalways thought it was a lone gunman ,simply beucase a ground mounted machine gun is going to havea fairly tight shot group,and its VERY difficult to belive that out of a burst of MG fire only ONE bullet would find the mark. no other bullest hit the man,and the repots of the triplane indicate VERY little damage was done

[StephenLawson]

Ok, first it is spelled "Richthofen" two h's gents.

Second there is no bullet hole in the seat there are rivet holes and one attachment point on the right side where the seat tore loose from the frame. The wound was almost at his armpit in the rear. You won't like my version but he was killed trying to climb out of his machine. Yes I know about Capt. Fraser's (intelligence officer) version. I know what the Austrailian Diggers claimed. Brown missed him as he flew onat high speed firing at Lt. May for a mile and a half after Brown zoomed by. Capt. Brown never claimed the kill he said he shot at a red triplane. The RAF had it over the infantry and he was the likely candidate.

The seat in the Royal Military institute is from MvR's Dr.I 425/17 and was given to them by Capt. Brown. There are also about 200 eyelets around the rim where fabric covered the seat backing. Fabric shreds still held there are the same red as the aircraft. (It was probably painted at the factory by Fokker's orders for MvR.)

Christophe my sincerest thanks for the current images.

Edited July 20, 2006 by StephenLawson

[peter monahan]

Stephen

Your photos clearly trump my foggy 50 year old memory! I won't comment on the "shot on the ground" theory, though it neither surprises nor shocks me. (Sorry, bad stuff happens in wars. It shouldn't, but it does.)

BUT, if Brown didn't shoot him, why did he land? Slugs in the engine? Surely this would have appeared in other accounts?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Peter

[Dolf]

Hallo Christophe

No thats not it in this series they looked at the deaths of famous people, the Red Baron, Marylin Monroe, Robert Maxwell, Princess Diana etc...etc

In the Red Baron one they looked at all the medical evidence of the inquest into the body, particularly the path of the bullet when it hit the body. Some great computer graphics.

The characteristics of 303 ammunition fired from Rifles and machine guns (I believe the Canadian crew were using a Lewis). They also physicaly tried to pass a 303 round through the hole in the seat and it would not fit.

Also a laser was fitted on a tripod on the ground and fired at a light aeroplane flying a similar course to the Red Barons last flight compiled from obsevation reports filed at the time.

Kevin in Deva

Kevin,

I watched that same program, and a few others on that series, these seem quite serious and very well done indeed, using all modern technics and advances in science to explain unsolved or dubious past mysteries.

Anyway, the amazing thing is that after all these years the guy who shot the bullet that killed the Red Baron remains unknown!

Who would ever imagine that an ace that dominated the skies during that period would be shot by a single bullet shot by a unknown soldier on the ground!

BUT, if Brown didn't shoot him, why did he land? Slugs in the engine? Surely this would have appeared in other accounts?

Paul, according to this TV program he landed because he was fataly wounded by that bullet shot from the ground.

Dolf

[StephenLawson]

Stephen, Your photos clearly trump my foggy 50 year old memory! I won't comment on the "shot on the ground" theory, though it neither surprises nor shocks me. (Sorry, bad stuff happens in wars. It shouldn't, but it does.) BUT, if Brown didn't shoot him, why did he land? Slugs in the engine? Surely this would have appeared in other accounts? Enquiring minds want to know!

Peter

Greetings Peter Monahan;

There is so much about the crash that is speculation. These are my opinions only.

First your comment, yes bad things happen. MvR may have been trying to climb out of the wreck to avoid the fire danger. (He did this when previously being wounded back in July 1917.) The soldier I believe that did the shooting was stopping an enemy from escaping. MvR had been chasing a British machine intent on shooting it down. The ground troops would not take the chance to note if he was armed or not. It was war.

He had his face bashed against the gun butts and was dazed (he climbed out of his machine in July 1917 with a severe head wound.) Even the ground troops noted that he was concious momentarily after they showed up to the cockpit. It looks bad but the easy out was to credit an RAF pilot.

The point is that he was shot from behind and there is no bullet hole in the seat.

What caused him to land? severed fuel line, damaged prop (most likely) some bullet wounds have been noted in his legs. ("Who Killed the Red Baron" and "The Day the Red Baron Died.") Lack of fuel is also a possibility especially if if the fuel tank was punctured. Raw fuel dumping into your lap is another reason to land ...quickly. I know most people consider this a conspiracy theory but you can't alter the laws of physics. There is no bullet hole in the seat.

The Oberursel Ur.II motor is in British hands. It notes some damage as well. Immediately before he crashed there were at least three ground mounted machine guns and possibly several dozen troops taking shots at him. One one bullet killed him. We may never know who. Considering the flight path, enemy contacts and etc is good. The so called autopsy is a good source though somewhat conflicted. (They ran a metal rod through his corpse to track the straight line between the wounds.) There was some thought that the bullet tracked through the interior and richocheted off the spine. Capt Fraser (intel offficer) says that the bullet exited the body but was found laying inside the pilot's combination flight suit. It disappeared soon after.

The only real piece of forensic evidence is the seat. A high backed, deep welled type that employed the Heinecke parachute pack as a cushion. MvR was at best 5'7" - 5' 9" according to photo evidence. If he was shot in the cockpit, his feet were braced against the rudder bar and he was strapped in and the cockpit opening was less than 24 inches from gun butts to rear cockpit rim. Tight fit. See my avatar. I am six foot tall.

In the end he violated his own laws of survival in the air and paid with his life.

Edited July 21, 2006 by StephenLawson

[Tom Morgan]

Worth bearing in mind also that Christophe's picture of the "wreck" of the plane doesn't show it as it was after it came to earth (the plane landed more or less intact) but how it looked after the souvenir-hunters had finished!

Tom

[peter monahan]

Dolf, Kevin & Stephen

Sorry if I sounded skeptical about the TV show. I usually am! My experience has been that television producers are far more interested in a good story than in good history but, not having seen it, I accept your view that it was well done.

Syephen: all my questions answered. Thank you. As I said earlier, I've not studied this story/case at all and, clearly, what I thought I remembered from a cursory examination of the infamous seat was flat wrong. No bullet hole = Roy Brown didn't kill him, whatevere else he may have done (or not) to the plane.

A fascinating mystery!

Peter

[StephenLawson]

Thank you for your kind words. I note that usually people who have read everything on MvR tend to believe what has been handed to them. The possibility that anything else happened is almost heretical. When you have sat in a replica Dr.I you tend to see things a little differently. IMHO