Belgium belgium medal

[RobW]

A little closer; you can see the boar's head on the left. I can see it clearer through the loop, just can't quite get the PIC's to show the details. These marks are just too tiny.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Here is a close-up of the boars head mark.

Source: La Médaille coloniale, Guide du collectionneur, Patrick Binet, 2010

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

Can't quite make out what the maker's mark is. Tried to hit it from a couple of angles but, I think the background stipling is affecting the actual maker's stamping here. What was Delande's mark?

Thanks again!

Tim

Hello Tim,

While Marius and Paul Delande had a number of different marks here is a close-up of the diamond shaped mark in question; M - bumble bee - D.

Source: La Médaille coloniale, Guide du collectionneur, Patrick Binet, 2010

Regards,

Rob

Edited January 2, 2011 by RobW

[Tim B]

Hi Rob; Happy New Year to you!

Yes, I had the boar's head but the bumblebee is a new one for my books. Bad thing about the actual marking here is, I just can't make out anything inside the diamond. As I pointed out in the French Maker's Mark thread in the French forum, sometimes a simple rotation of the mark or the lighting used and you have a completely different view of what might be there. In this case, I "think" I can see an "X" or something crossed one way and then change the view a bit and I think it's just a crushed bead from the original stipling. Still, it's a start!

Tim

[RobW]

Hi Rob; Happy New Year to you!

Yes, I had the boar's head but the bumblebee is a new one for my books. Bad thing about the actual marking here is, I just can't make out anything inside the diamond. As I pointed out in the French Maker's Mark thread in the French forum, sometimes a simple rotation of the mark or the lighting used and you have a completely different view of what might be there. In this case, I "think" I can see an "X" or something crossed one way and then change the view a bit and I think it's just a crushed bead from the original stipling. Still, it's a start!

Tim

Hey Tim,

And a happy new year to you too.

While I have also seen the Delande mark more often within a cube it has stayed consistent as the M - bee - D. This mark was in use from 1907-62 and when Paul Delande took over in 1962 all that changed on the mark was a P replacing the M. Having the mark on this piece in the first place is a bonus as it has marked the piece as French and not Belgian production. So much variety of manufacturers during that period.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Hi Rob,

Yes, I was tickled to see this one marked and that always adds a little more interest for me. As I looped the two Military Cross, the quality of the gilding is clearly nicer on the 2nd class version though both are showing signs of toning.

So, based on the period and what you see of the mark here, how confident are you that this is in fact Delande's stamp? If I have time this week I will take it out of the safe and try to look a little harder under better lighting.

Thanks again to farmer & Rob!

Tim

[RobW]

So, based on the period and what you see of the mark here, how confident are you that this is in fact Delande's stamp? If I have time this week I will take it out of the safe and try to look a little harder under better lighting.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Despite the best glass it can always be a bit of a challenge to correctly identify the mark. It comes down to lighting and what looks the most correct at the time. Notwithstanding that there were many French medal manufacturers that also used a diamond shaped mark, it looks to me like the Delande mark but then I have limited experience. Another possibility is that of Adrien Chobillon and here is the mark from the same period.

It would be interesting to see what you think on further inspection.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Well, spent the better part of my Sunday afternoon trying to loop and photograph these marks. I just can't make out the maker's mark on this one. I did get a slightly better PIC of the Boar's Head though.

As a bonus, I got curious and went back to my Leopold Orders and found a couple of interesting surprises there as well and posted those shots in the appropriate threads on the Leo I & II.

Tim

[Tim B]

I tried rotating the mark around to see if I could make something out by changing the orientation. Thought I got lucky when I thought I could make out a small letter "M" (right) and what might have been a "L" or "I" (left). The more I looked at it, the more I figured the light was playing with my eyes. :banger:

Edited January 3, 2011 by Tim B

[Tim B]

It has a funny shape to the diamond and maybe someone can identify it from that. Then again, could be just a mistamped diamond. :speechless:

[Tim B]

A little closer view of the stamp. The center has a high point, but I can't tell if it's part of a mark or just a remnant of the bead in the stipling. I give up for now, my eye's are crosseyed and I think I see an elephant with the trunk to the left!

Tim

[RobW]

I tried rotating the mark around to see if I could make something out by changing the orientation. Thought I got lucky when I thought I could make out a small letter "M" (right) and what might have been a "L" or "I" (left). The more I looked at it, the more I figured the light was playing with my eyes.

Hello Tim,

When I'm back in Sydney I shall check my references and see if there is one with an M - L mark.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that offer, certainly no hurry. I wouldn't spend a lot of effort on it as I just think I am seeing more tricks of the eye and lighting here, but who knows? The outline shape might hold more curiosity for me but then again, it might be just a diamond shape that developed that left tail to it when stamped.

Always appreciated my friend!

Tim

[farmer]

Tim/Rob,

Sorry to create this bit of en 'enigma' for you. I had at one time Military Cross 1st class by Marius Delande, punch was like one in Rob's post but there were others in use. So my guess as to maker behind your MC was based on that.

Marius used this mark from 1907-1942. Guideline of the 'diamond-shape' maker (master) marks was mentioned for the first time in 1838, revised in 1896. In reality, firms made marks in various shapes. Trends to stray away from the 'diamond-shape' are (for the most part) apparent from the end of the Great War on. One would have to follow each (individual) firm in order to accurately date their marks and this is not easy if even possible (many firms ceased their operation as a result of WW2).

Below is mark of MD on piece that is no longer in my posession. I photographed it long time ago. If memory serves me well, boar head mark was also present.

Cheers.

[farmer]

Gents,

Punch marks are fun but can be very frustrating to 'decipher'. At times even best lighting cannot make them clear. Obviously, the most common problem is miss-strike of a punch. Often only a part of the mark is visible rendering identification very difficult if at all possible. Knowing particular maker marks well helps in identifying partial impressions.

I am quite surprised how few collectors study those marks in detail. Capturing them well is another kettle of tea as Tim is finding out firsthand.

Small (and cheap) microscope of 30x - 100x is often quite invaluable. Radio shack used to have them here in North America for $ 20 or so. Very difficult to photograph through them but possible with small-lensed POS digicams.

In addition - Chobillon indeed made many medals, badges and Orders - also some Belgian. I photographed AC's marks. From left to right are the oldest to the most recent (one in rectangular punch) as used from 1950's on.

Mark at the bottom was (according to my information) only used on the Interallied Victory medals since there was no room for the full 'diamond-shape' punch.

Tim, I also checked my database for French makers with "M L" or "M I" and came up empty. Firm of Magaire & Tailleur used 'M (small flower) T' that can possibly appear as 'MI' but my notes indicate they were sold in 1885. Jules Monney (MJ) went out of business in 1895 so it also cannot be. There are few others with MJ but they did not make medals or badges (according to my database on Parisian jewelers and silversmiths).

Have fun with marks!!

[Tim B]

Hi farmer,

No enigma here for us, always nice to see others in the discussion. Yes, trying to decipher these tiny marks and getting good photograhs are a bit of a challenge but just another part of collecting.

Actually, I am trying to get more information out there on these maker's marks and have started a thread sometime back in the French section: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=44224 Please feel free to contribute as much as you can.

Tim

[oliver860]

And there are photos of medals Chobillon Mark?