Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Robin Lumsden]

Which would you choose, if they were selling for the same price and if you could choose only one?

I'd pick the badge.

The photo could be copied for my files from the net, or from a book! :cheeky:

[Robin Lumsden]

For me, it's the excitement of documenting new information........

photos......prove the authenticity of the insignia.

Good points! :cheers:

[Robin Lumsden]

This thread has now had over 23,000 views. :whistle:

[Chip]

All good points Thomas. I get the same emotion upon discovering something formerly unknown or unproven in a period photo. I have some unpublished/unknown surprise photos myself.

Speaking of the "St." abbreviation, I have a cap that came out of the woodwork (I am the first collector to own it) that has an unusual skull on the front between the cockades and is marked inside "St.B.XIV". I'm not saying that this is a Sturm-Batl. marking, but I have not been able to nail it down with any certainty. I suppose it could be a battalion staff marking of some sort, but it just seems odd that it is with a corps type numeral. Perhaps it is not a corps mark at all, as, of course, the original Württemberg cockade would indicate the XIII Korps and the cap has that appropriate BA mark as well. There is also an unreadable circular stamp that is very intriguing. It is not easy to see, but I have included some of the markings for your viewing.

Chip

[Thomas W]

All good points Thomas. I get the same emotion upon discovering something formerly unknown or unproven in a period photo. I have some unpublished/unknown surprise photos myself.

Speaking of the "St." abbreviation, I have a cap that came out of the woodwork (I am the first collector to own it) that has an unusual skull on the front between the cockades and is marked inside "St.B.XIV". I'm not saying that this is a Sturm-Batl. marking, but I have not been able to nail it down with any certainty. I suppose it could be a battalion staff marking of some sort, but it just seems odd that it is with a corps type numeral. Perhaps it is not a corps mark at all, as, of course, the original Württemberg cockade would indicate the XIII Korps and the cap has that appropriate BA mark as well. There is also an unreadable circular stamp that is very intriguing. It is not easy to see, but I have included some of the markings for your viewing.

I have photos of infantry squads and shock troops denoted by Roman numerals. There were also divisional assault battalions informally organized but given names or numbers. They may have used Roman numerals.

So, what are some of your photographic surprises?

[Robin Lumsden]

I have a cap that came out of the woodwork that ....... has an unusual skull on the front between the cockades .............. the original Württemberg cockade would indicate the XIII Korps..............

Does this in some way bring us back to the photo (below) that started this thread ???? :jumping:

[Robin Lumsden]

......... shock troops denoted by Roman numerals.

Ditto the above post ???

[Thomas W]

Ditto the above post ???

Photo of Shock Troop 14, Reserve Infantry Regiment No. 12, training for the assault at Skrobowa on November 9, 1916. The fourteen shock troops were each composed of six Kleif troops, each of which contained two Kleif squads; a hand-grenade squad from the flamethrower regiment; and several infantry squads armed with light machine guns and automatic rifles, under the command of flamethrower officers and deputy officers.

The man on the left has "R 12" on the front of his Pickelhaube cover, while the man on the right has "XIV S" on the left side of his. This is a low-resolution scan I enlarged. The original photo is now with the publisher.

[Robin Lumsden]

Thanks, Thomas.

You always have access to some great photos.

[Robin Lumsden]

I have a cap that came out of the woodwork (I am the first collector to own it) that has an unusual skull on the front between the cockades ........the original Württemberg cockade would indicate the XIII Korps ...........

Any chance of a photo of the cap, Chip ??

It would be too much to hope for that the 'unusual skull' is painted black ............................ :whistle:

Edited May 29, 2011 by Robin Lumsden

[Thomas W]

Thanks, Thomas.

You always have access to some great photos.

Most are part of my collection. I've bought a lot of them either at local paper shows or on Web sites other than eBay. Takes a lot of detective work, but the great bargains have made up for the insane prices I've paid for eBay items.

By the way, this is why I think your Totenkopf could easily be authentic. Have you ever seen Pickelhaube covers with Roman numerals and an "S" on them? I'll bet you haven't, and I'll bet none of us have seen mention of such insignia, either.

Just because a badge hasn't been seen in photos or described in records doesn't mean it didn't exist...

[Robin Lumsden]

Have you ever seen Pickelhaube covers with Roman numerals and an "S" on them? I'll bet you haven't.

Korrekt !! :cheers:

[Robin Lumsden]

I think your Totenkopf could easily be authentic.

Thanks, Thomas.

I am sure it is authentic ............ I just don't know exactly what it is !! :speechless:

[Robin Lumsden]

Slight deviation, but relevant, I think.

This is what it feels like to find a badge after searching for it for over 30 years.

Added bonus .......... the opera is set in Scotland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6pjLo8894g

[Robin Lumsden]

For the linguistically challenged .....................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnmXfdvYCRw&feature=related

[Thomas W]

For the linguistically challenged .....................

I'll feel that way when I find the carte-de-visite of a Sturmbataillon Rohr flamethrower pioneer with a Totenkopf Pickelhaube.

[Robin Lumsden]

I'll feel that way when I find the carte-de-visite of a Sturmbataillon Rohr flamethrower pioneer with a Totenkopf Pickelhaube.

Just to explain .............. for 30 years I had been looking for a flammenwerfer TK.

By 2008, I had basically given up.

In 2009, I missed TWO of them by 10 MINUTES !!!!

This week, I finally got one of the two.

Thanks again, Don.

[Thomas W]

Just to explain .............. for 30 years I had been looking for a flammenwerfer TK.

By 2008, I had basically given up.

In 2009, I missed TWO of them by 10 MINUTES !!!!

This week, I finally got one of the two.

Thanks again, Don.

This photo haunts me to this day. The owner told me he would never sell it, so I gave up. A few months later, I contacted him to ask if I could use it in a book, but he told me he had... sold it.

[Robin Lumsden]

I have a cap that came out of the woodwork .... that has an unusual skull on the front between the cockades ......

This one has been seen before ............. and the TK is black. :jumping:

[Robin Lumsden]

....... he told me he had... sold it.

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH !!!!!!

Baaaa$$$$tard !!!! :violent:

[Chip]

Here are two additional photos of the cap with the "St.B.XIV" markings.

[Chip]

So, what are some of your photographic surprises?

One that you might be interested in is a couple of clear photos of an awards ceremony attended by the crown prince. The soldier nearest to the camera has a Sturmgepäck on his back and a metal sewn-on sleeve insignia of crossed grenades on his upper arm. I have one of the insignia that I got at the same time that I got the photos.

Chip

[Thomas W]

One that you might be interested in is a couple of clear photos of an awards ceremony attended by the crown prince. The soldier nearest to the camera has a Sturmgepäck on his back and a metal sewn-on sleeve insignia of crossed grenades on his upper arm. I have one of the insignia that I got at the same time that I got the photos.

I think I've seen that insignia. Didn't you post it on this forum somewhere?

As for your cap, if it's from Sturmbataillon Nr. 14, the skull badge could be Austrian, since part of Sturmbataillon Nr. 14 was merged with part of Sturmbataillon Nr. 16 and Austrian assault units to form the provisional Sturmbataillon der Heeresgruppe Herzog Albrecht for the Battle of Caporetto. I have a photo of a Bavarian member of the AlpenKorps wearing two Austrian badges on his cap.

The Württemberg cockade is one of those mysteries that might never be explained. I have several photos of assault troops wearing mixtures of Württemberger, Prussian, Saxon, and Bavarian cockades and belt buckles. It seems that assault units were often made up of men from all over the German empire. I have a photo of a Schütze from Württemberg Mountain Machine Gun Detachment 250 wearing a cap with a Bavarian state cockade. I also posted closeups of a photo of a Kanonier from an infantry accompanying battery wearing a Württemberg cockade and a Saxon belt buckle.

I think the German kingdoms had a lot more interaction between their armies than was previously thought, particularly when it came to elite, specialist units.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Thomas W

[Chip]

I think I've seen that insignia. Didn't you post it on this forum somewhere?

As for your cap, if it's from Sturmbataillon Nr. 14, the skull badge could be Austrian, since part of Sturmbataillon Nr. 14 was merged with part of Sturmbataillon Nr. 16 and Austrian assault units to form the provisional Sturmbataillon der Heeresgruppe Herzog Albrecht for the Battle of Caporetto. I have a photo of a Bavarian member of the AlpenKorps wearing two Austrian badges on his cap.

Thomas,

I may have posted that insignia before, I don't recall.

German soldiers that served with the Austrians often wore Austrian cap badges, especially the Bavarians. Pictures of this are not uncommon. I would have to take a look through my photos to see if I specifically have one that includes an Edelweiss.

Chip

[Robin Lumsden]

Here are two additional photos of the cap with the "St.B.XIV" markings.

Thanks for posting these cap photos, Chip.

Looks like a black skull and Württemberg combination again .......... like the black skull and MW straps that started the thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XIII_(Royal_W%C3%BCrttemberg)_Corps

One day ............ we will know the answer ! :jumping:

Edited May 30, 2011 by Robin Lumsden