Identification of Medalbar - owner/wearer

[Ulan]

Hello Gentleman,

Surely you have noticed that I am fairly new to this exiting and very professional Forum, and I am happy to be on it.

Some of you Gents, posess incredible knowledge when it comes to identifying fromer owners of Medalbars, therefore I am placing a photo of a recent purchase of mine.

Maybe it will be possible for someone to help me on identifying the former owner/wearer of this bar.

Your help is greatly appreciated

Regards

Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

.........as I said before I have my doubts on the authenticity of the bar - not talking about the single orders and medals - the bar as a whole thing looks new made to me , look for example at that shiny new needle on the back........all ribbons look very new and some of the awards too.....

but my main problem is the combination of awards - in my eyes still impossible !!!

But I go down on my knees waiting for Sascha who has a completely different opinion.......... :whistle:

[scottplen]

Hello Gentleman,

Surely you have noticed that I am fairly new to this exiting and very professional Forum, and I am happy to be on it.

Some of you Gents, posess incredible knowledge when it comes to identifying fromer owners of Medalbars, therefore I am placing a photo of a recent purchase of mine.

Maybe it will be possible for someone to help me on identifying the former owner/wearer of this bar.

Your help is greatly appreciated

Regards

Ulan

Hello

I hate to say but I don't like this bar the ribbons seem new and order seems off iam no expert but seems

to me that it looks like fakes coming out of austria but wait for other with more knowledge than me

[Guest Rick Research]

This is indeed a Frankenstein fraud parts bar. The awards all look original but the ribbons and mounting are brand new.

The combination is impossible.

The value would be what all the individual awards are worth with no ribbons at all.

[Ulan]

This is indeed a Frankenstein fraud parts bar. The awards all look original but the ribbons and mounting are brand new.

The combination is impossible.

The value would be what all the individual awards are worth with no ribbons at all.

Hello Rick Research,

The value......, well at least that would be good news - thanks!

What is it that makes this "combination" impossible?

Regards

Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

I think we have to make it a bit more clear for Ulan what the combination problems are here....you need to understand the real world to see Frankensteins world... by the way : Castle Frankenstein is not in Ohio BUT just some miles away from me between Frankfurt and Darmstadt.... huuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh

1. iron cross second class - ww1 1914-18 prussian standart award to both officers and nco`s / soldiers

2.Bavaria military merit order - that is an officers only award ! on your bar it is on the ribbon that is the peacetime ribbon for the order OR the combattant ribbon before ww1 - but an officers award makes no sense here... and the nco award for that ribbon looks different...if it should be for ww1 the ribbon is wrong...

3. china medal for combattants

4. Kriegerverdienst-Medaille - the small one for foreigners.... but I think if he got that one in china he was no foreigner (given the case he was a bavarian) because their were no state / nation troops from the german states but only "german troops" - no foreigners - all germans awarded something like that got in china the MEZ2 - the big one .... as far as I know..

5. Württemberg silver merit medal for ww1

6. Austria , don`t know the name ... ww1?

7. Bayern Luitpold medal 1905 - ah , he is bavarian...

8. Bavaria again - 15years long service awards for nco`s... goes not confirm with MVO in second place...

9. Centenar medal 1897 ..... uuuuiiiiuuuiii.... I am not shure if bavarian soldiers got them in 1897 ??? and by the way... long service time from 1897 over china (counts double) over 1905 over ww1 (counts double).........and no more DA ..... ah forgot , had to be an officer......

That`s what I read from this bar - and that`s just the combination , not the material , not the sewing , not the medals or the needle... just the combination - that`s how bars can talk....

My personal opinion is - return it if you can as fast as you can....

all the best

Heiko

[Ulan]

please read my last post...

Hello HeikoGrusdat,

sorry but that was a doubble post - internet conection is a bit slow today,

Basically the answer has been given - I was aware about the ribbons looking more like brand new - which would not exclude a refurbishing reason of an old worn down medalbar.

Due to this issue and the 15 years NCO I restricted my bid to the individual medal value.

If the medals are real - well I have to wait until I hold them in my hands.

The part were I fully agree - therefore my asking in regards to "combination" is the 15 years NCO service cross - in contra to the MVO and Centenary medal.

On the other medals I don't really see a contradiction.

In order to receive a Centenary medal this "owner" would have had to be at least in the 70/71 war - again making the 15 years NCO misfitting.

Thanks for the help, and thanks to all others too

Regards

Ulan

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

...........yes , too many non-matching things at all ... sorry

[Guest Rick Research]

The internet is also being bad for me today-- and I am told sometimes my answers are TOO long and with too MUCH detail.

The immediate problem at first glance is that the entire bar is made wrong. Normally, on bars with the awards sewn in, the top of the bar is flat along the ribbons and the decorations should all be level along the bottom with each other-- unless there is something a strange shape that sticks out more.

Next, this purports to be a pre-1934 medal bar, but Bavarians did not wear the Iron Cross in first position until 1935.

1) This is the statute ribbon worn for ALL awards of the Bavariaan Military Merit Order until 1913. This is NOT the correct model cross for China-- flames for this class (BMV4X)were introduced in 1905. So it must be a World War decoration. This CANNOT have been awarded with

2) because this Württemberg Military Merit Medal (on M1913 war ribbon) was ONLY awarded to JUNIOR enlisted ranks-- and yet this "person" was supposedly a SENIOR NCO ( 8) ) who rose to officer...

3) Was awarded to Prussian and Imperial navy and colonial forces on active duty 22 March 1897, as well as to Prussian (and allied) veterans of 1870, 1866 and so on. It was only awarded for 22.03.97 to VERY few non-Prussian troops who happened to be serving in Alsace-Lorraine (XVth Army Corps) or whose Honorary Colonel-in-Chief was the Kaiser. While not impossible for a Bavarian-- and this puprorts to being a "Bavarina's" medal bar-- it is uncommon enough to be worth checking on a non-Prussian medal bar.

4) The China Medal is not in the correct position here. Despite the fact that this person was supposed to have been decorated for bravery ( 5) ) in China, there are no battle bars on the ribbon.

5) The Kriegerverdienstmedaille was not awarded for China. As Heiko said, the Militärehrenzeichen was. This is the wrong medal.

6) M1915 Austro-Hungarian Large Silver Bravery Medal was given only to ENLISTED ranks. Before 1938 this would not be in this position-- and this medal bar purports to be before 1934 since there is no Hindenburg Cross.

This medal combination PURPORTS to show us a career senior noncommissioned officer who somehow rose to officer rank during the World War-- this like ( 2) ) does not make sense for such a person

7) WHICH Luitpold Jubilee Medal is this? Not that it matters, but what is on the reverse side?

8) M1913 Bavarian XV Years Service Cross only given to noncommissioned officers. For IT to be here-- and NOT a M1906 XXIV Years Service Cross, on a REAL bar would indicate a FORMER acreer NCO who had retired, then been called back up for the World War as a Feldwebelleutnant dL...

who could not have received ( 2) ) or ( 6) ).

At least the BMV4X is a nice gold centered one.

[Ulan]

The internet is also being bad for me today-- and I am told sometimes my answers are TOO long and with too MUCH detail.

The immediate problem at first glance is that the entire bar is made wrong. Normally, on bars with the awards sewn in, the top of the bar is flat along the ribbons and the decorations should all be level along the bottom with each other-- unless there is something a strange shape that sticks out more.

Next, this purports to be a pre-1934 medal bar, but Bavarians did not wear the Iron Cross in first position until 1935.

1) This is the statute ribbon worn for ALL awards of the Bavariaan Military Merit Order until 1913. This is NOT the correct model cross for China-- flames for this class (BMV4X)were introduced in 1905. So it must be a World War decoration. This CANNOT have been awarded with

2) because this Württemberg Military Merit Medal (on M1913 war ribbon) was ONLY awarded to JUNIOR enlisted ranks-- and yet this "person" was supposedly a SENIOR NCO ( 8) ) who rose to officer...

3) Was awarded to Prussian and Imperial navy and colonial forces on active duty 22 March 1897, as well as to Prussian (and allied) veterans of 1870, 1866 and so on. It was only awarded for 22.03.97 to VERY few non-Prussian troops who happened to be serving in Alsace-Lorraine (XVth Army Corps) or whose Honorary Colonel-in-Chief was the Kaiser. While not impossible for a Bavarian-- and this puprorts to being a "Bavarina's" medal bar-- it is uncommon enough to be worth checking on a non-Prussian medal bar.

4) The China Medal is not in the correct position here. Despite the fact that this person was supposed to have been decorated for bravery ( 5) ) in China, there are no battle bars on the ribbon.

5) The Kriegerverdienstmedaille was not awarded for China. As Heiko said, the Militärehrenzeichen was. This is the wrong medal.

6) M1915 Austro-Hungarian Large Silver Bravery Medal was given only to ENLISTED ranks. Before 1938 this would not be in this position-- and this medal bar purports to be before 1934 since there is no Hindenburg Cross.

This medal combination PURPORTS to show us a career senior noncommissioned officer who somehow rose to officer rank during the World War-- this like ( 2) ) does not make sense for such a person

7) WHICH Luitpold Jubilee Medal is this? Not that it matters, but what is on the reverse side?

8) M1913 Bavarian XV Years Service Cross only given to noncommissioned officers. For IT to be here-- and NOT a M1906 XXIV Years Service Cross, on a REAL bar would indicate a FORMER acreer NCO who had retired, then been called back up for the World War as a Feldwebelleutnant dL...

who could not have received ( 2) ) or ( 6) ).

At least the BMV4X is a nice gold centered one.

Hello Rick Research,

thanks a lot indeed for all your time you have invested in disclaiming this Medalbar.

Upon reading up on your elaborations it makes everything very logical - where was my brain?

Well I contacted the seller - so let us see what happens next!!

I have posted the reverse side of the Luitpold medal - maybe this can give you some further indications.

According to your knowledge are there a lot of faked MVO's on the Market?

Best Regards

Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

According to your knowledge are there a lot of faked MVO's on the Market?

oh yes there are..... and of course many who "lost" their swords to make a rare noncom of them .... and so son...

[Guest Rick Research]

That is the 1905 model Luitpold Jubilee Medal. It would have been REALLY crazy f the 1911 model had been used!

The BMV4X appears to be perfectly good from the scans.

[Ulan]

That is the 1905 model Luitpold Jubilee Medal. It would have been REALLY crazy f the 1911 model had been used!

The BMV4X appears to be perfectly good from the scans.

Hello Gents,

thanks again for all your help and interest.

Regards

Ulan

[saschaw]

Gentlemen, couldn't you wait for me? Had to work and see our federal chancelour in spe today... sorry for the delay!

I'm not sure with the bar itself - might be new or old but still nice silk ribbons - but don't see that much problemes with the combination. There were some Bavarians that wore the EK2 in first place before 1936. Combination seems otherwise to be actually fine. Am not totally sure about the Württemberg and Austrian bravery medals to "foreign" EMs and NCOs. Really impossible?! Wrong ribbon on MVO is odd but not unheard of. Know as well groups that have Beamten and fighter ribbon on different medal bars while they were to the same... period mistakes!

China medal in bronze with PrKrVM on black/white ribbon is fine, on a Bavarian's bar.

Edited September 1, 2009 by saschaw

[HeikoGrusdat]

Sascha...............what..........why............are you ok???

that cannot fit.... no way...... why should bavarians get Kriegerverdienstmedaillen for china????

noooooooooooo way :shame:

[Guest Rick Research]

Right. All East Asia Expedition forces were "Imperial" and given MEZs. Same for Southwest Africa soon afterwards. (Though almost NONE for China--915--and lots and lots for Africa--4,900+....)

Combination and ribbons they are on are C-R-A-Z-Y. (Feldwebelleutnant dL 1914 with GEFREITER Württemberg award AND ÖsT1.... )

Did you faint when you saw Angela? Maybe bumped your head?

:cheeky:

[HeikoGrusdat]

now that would be an excuse ................ Angie can really make you crazy :love:

[Guest Rick Research]

Or you could be French. Mme. President oolalala.

Personally, I'd rather be Danish..... :catjava:

[HeikoGrusdat]

:beer: :D

[Ulan]

Hello Gents,

There are still Gentlemen on this planet. The seller has agreed to take back the medal bar and to refund the payment he is a bit confused himself and wants to take the medal bar to be checked up upon.

So saschaw - there comes your chance

I did some research too and noticed three things:

1^st the Wuertemberg medal was awarded to both NCO and OFFICERS

2^nd the Centenary Medal, could also be worn by those who had not been in battle before 1914. There is a picture depicting the 2^nd son of Kaiser Wilhelm Eitel Friedrich wearing just that medal, even though he was born in 1883.

3^rd the Austrian medal, look all the same at the back. There are two versions I found out so far, one as depicted on the posted medal bar, whilst the other version displays the name "Tautenhays" under the Emperors profile. A bit strange is that whilst the medal on the bar is very detailed "new", all others depicted are kind of rubbed off smooth so as to say.

The Austria medal were also awarded to both NCO and Officers

BTW, there were Bavarians who went to China along with the East Asia Brigade - I would know of three of them relegated from the 1st Bavarian Ulan Rgmt,

So far, besides those brand new looking ribbons, I only found the 15 years service medal missplaced and the fact that someone would place an EK II, before an MVO, and the wrong MVO ribbon. I do not find anything wrong with the China medal - The ribbon is correct, that there is no TAKU or TIENTSIN etc. clasp on it - well, as long as the person was listed as a non administrative person he was legible to receive the Gold version - even maybe never firing a shot outside Tsingtau. Or amonst the delayed German force which for most of its men didn't see action anyway besides the punishment missions conducted after 1901 till 1907.

Regards

Ulan

Edited September 2, 2009 by Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

Ulan.............. you don`t understand some things...

The Centenarmedal was given out in 1897 to all Vets of the former wars 1870/71 , 1866 and 1864 AND to all active PRUSSIAN soldiers in 1897 + some police , court personal etc...

BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Kriegerverdienstmedaille is NOT CORRECT THERE !!! There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen) and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille that was only given to foreign troops - the Bavarian soldiers in China (of course they were there - hundreds of them) were there not as soldiers of the king of bavaria but as soldiers of the IMPERIAL GERMANY - they fought in china as germans - not as bavarians !!!

the austrian medal is not my field of knowledge but if Rick says that.... I believe him...

You can think what you want - the bar , the combination is crap!!! :shame:

[Guest Rick Research]

"1st the Wuertemberg medal was awarded to both NCO and OFFICERS"

NO. WRONG. The silver medal was ONLY awarded to privates, corporals, and junior sergeants. That is the problem with it here.

"2nd the Centenary Medal, could also be worn by those who had not been in battle before 1914. There is a picture depicting the 2nd son of Kaiser Wilhelm – Eitel Friedrich – wearing just that medal, even though he was born in 1883."

NO. WRONG. The Kaiser's sons wore these bacause they were "commissioned officers" as CHILDREN. They were on "active duty" in 1897 as Imperial Princes even though they were just BOYS.

"3rd...The Austria medal were also awarded to both NCO and Officers"

NO. WRONG. This was given ONLY to enlisted ranks, and this type of this medal only between 1915 and 1917.

There were, of course, hundreds of Bavarians (and Saxons, Württembergers etc etc) sent to crush the Boxer uprising. Some of them were decorated by Bavaria, as were Germans from the other small states, but all were there as "Imperial" troops.

No battle bar on the China medal ribbon indicates

1) every German Expedition Corps regiment sent to China left its 9th Company to guard all the foreign banks in Shanghai-- where there were no "troubles"

2) the wearer could not find a medal bar maker who had the correct Spange in stock. The splints on the back broke easily and these were hard to replace.

3) the medal bar is fake--and there are also MANY brand new faked Spanges as Heiko can attest.

The campaign medal was given ONLY for 1900-1901. The "Besatzung" forces afterwards received no medal for that duty after 1901. :beer:

[Komtur]

... Had to work and see our federal chancelour in spe today...

What the h... you had to deal with Horst Schlämmer :P

[Ulan]

Hello Rick Research,

"1st the Wuertemberg medal was awarded to both NCO and OFFICERS"

NO. WRONG. The silver medal was ONLY awarded to privates, corporals, and junior sergeants. That is the problem with it here.

Yes, you are correct - there was a gold medal for officers!

"2nd the Centenary Medal, could also be worn by those who had not been in battle before 1914. There is a picture depicting the 2nd son of Kaiser Wilhelm Eitel Friedrich wearing just that medal, even though he was born in 1883."

NO. WRONG. The Kaiser's sons wore these bacause they were "commissioned officers" as CHILDREN. They were on "active duty" in 1897 as Imperial Princes even though they were just BOYS.

That is interesting! thanks for that information

"3rd...The Austria medal were also awarded to both NCO and Officers"

NO. WRONG. This was given ONLY to enlisted ranks, and this type of this medal only between 1915 and 1917.

You are correct on behalf of the medal displayed on that medal bar - but I have not come across a destinction between NCO and Officers for that medal

Would you have a photo depicting the one that was awarded to officers?

There were, of course, hundreds of Bavarians (and Saxons, Württembergers etc etc) sent to crush the Boxer uprising. Some of them were decorated by Bavaria, as were Germans from the other small states, but all were there as "Imperial" troops.

No battle bar on the China medal ribbon indicates

1) every German Expedition Corps regiment sent to China left its 9th Company to guard all the foreign banks in Shanghai-- where there were no "troubles"

2) the wearer could not find a medal bar maker who had the correct Spange in stock. The splints on the back broke easily and these were hard to replace.

3) the medal bar is fake--and there are also MANY brand new faked Spanges as Heiko can attest.

Sorry, unfortunatly most of my books are in Germany. IIRC the main force of the German East Asia Brigade arrived in 1901 after those Peitang, Taku -etc. battles - I will have to read up in the internet. So at peresent I could imagine thousands of Germans getting the China medal without a clasp.

I will come back to you after I read up on this topic.

The campaign medal was given ONLY for 1900-1901. The "Besatzung" forces afterwards received no medal for that duty after 1901.

HeikoGrusdat

BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are wrong on that, since Bavarian troops took part in the 1870/71 war. Also in an original Bavarian army handbook from 1907 that I have, the Centenar medal (Erinnerungs Medaille) and China medal (China Denkmuenze) are pictured under "Medals legible for Bavarian soldiers to be worn".

HeikoGrusdat

The Kriegerverdienstmedaille is NOT CORRECT THERE !!! There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen) and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille that was only given to foreign troops - the Bavarian soldiers in China (of course they were there - hundreds of them) were there not as soldiers of the king of bavaria but as soldiers of the IMPERIAL GERMANY - they fought in china as germans - not as bavarians !!!

Sorry I don't quite get you on the Kriegsverdienstmedaille (which Kriegsverdienstmedaille?) awarded to non Prussian troops - (would be okay then).

Yes the Bavarians fought amongst Imperial Troops in China, but they still maintained their national status (even on the uniform) and later returned to their original units - such as those from any other non Prussian unit. As such they would have received a Prussian Kriegsverdienstmedaille being foreign troops from Bavaria. NO ?

Therefore they were entitled to wear the China Denkmuenze on their uniform.

That this medal bar is a fantasy setup is obvious due to the contradiction of the Bavarian 15 years service award and wearing a Centenar (Erinnerungs Medaille) This is what disturbed me from the beginning. Besides the "plentyfull" EK II setting in front of the much higher award MVO.

Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ?

Regards

Ulan - always eager to lern more

Edited September 3, 2009 by Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

Ulan, you are a hard rock....

Talking only about the Centenarmedaille ..............

OF COURSE COULD A BAVARIAN WHO FOUGHT DURING THE 70/71 WAR WEAR A CENTENARMEDAILLE BECAUSE IN THIS CASE HE WAS A VETERAN OF THIS WAR AND GOT THE MEDAL IN 1897 AS I SAID BEFORE ----- EVERY VETERAN OF THE FORMER WARS GOT ONE !!!

But when a bavarian was a active soldier in the bavarian army in 1897 he would NOT get a Centenarmedaille because he was no prussian at this time , ok ?