China Chinese fakes Discussion

[Tidbit]

A long time lurker, but am interested in getting some opinions. A lot of people on forums like this discuss these 'medals' pointing out that no catalogue contains them. However, I do query some of the comments here:

1. Making badges

The badge making process would require a range of (even by Chinese standards) pricey equipment including some sort of enamel dispenser, basically a small manufacturing workshop (although labour prices may be such that it is actually possible to do a lot of it by hand - the average Chinese salary is about $750). If you were to produce a big range of these on any scale, you would need a small to medium light manufacturing company.

2. These are made from copper.

I am not sure how much they weigh, but a guess would suggest around 5 gramms, maybe a bit more. The copper value in these badges and medals would be a few cent. The going rate for these medals/badges is a couple bucks a piece, maybe a bit more if someone mistakes it for a military medal. There are some other materials, and China is pretty cheap, so let's just say the materials would cost around 5-10 cents per medal/badge. That would be conservative.

3. A corrosive bath is then used

I have no idea what the cost on something like this would be. I imagine, though, per unit, the unit cost would be minimal.

4. They are then sold to dumb tourists who do not know any better.

This is possible, and - in some cases - relatively high prices may be sought.

However...

Communists loved badges and awards. The awarded people for everything (as we do in the West - buy a lot of kids medals for a few bucks for example). Communists had awards and commerative badges/medals for everything. China will have literally billions of these types of badges. But where are all of them? What were millions of peasants given for meeting quotas? What did kids collect which inspire them to serve and respect China?

With over a billion people, there should be hundreds of millions of these badges. My guess is... these are those badges. Cheap, government produced commerative badges. Only the most stupid would bother counterfeiting them. It would be like counterfeiting standard, non-rare postage stamps from the PRC (the stuff you can buy 1000s for a few dollars) or fake British Royal family regalia. You might be able to sell a handful for a few bucks to the odd intrigued tourist, but really you would be lucky to carve out a decent living (the average salary is a few hundred bucks). Remember, whoever is producing them would be running a company. Only those with nothing else to sell would try to carve out a living on these badges.

But, let's accept they are fakes. How much more money would be made if a company tried to develop a brand for contemporary Chinese propoganda badges; commerating territorial disputes, the first Chinese astronaut, the space station, etc. Collectors would be willing to pay roughly the same amount on these as they do the older ones. I just cannot accept that selling the odd badge for $20 is a sustainable business strategy, criminal or otherwise.

Anyway, thoughts? Any hard evidence that will rock my world?

Edited April 7, 2013 by Tidbit

[drclaw]

It could well depend on the particular badge. We've all seen the very obvious fake / reproduction Striped Tigers, Golden Grains, Double Dragons, etc, selling for $60-$80 on ebay and presumably for much less to tourists in the Beijing markets.

As for the medals awarded to everyday people, a couple of years ago, I wandered into this old, dusty book store in Singapore which sold Chinese propaganda posters. They had both modern reproductions as well as gorgeous, 30+ year old originals. I picked up an original.

Later, I discovered in a book on Chinese Communist propaganda posters that they literally printed millions if not hundreds of millions of these and every household would have a couple displayed. There are some business-minded folks who now scour towns and villages for these posters to sell to the West and hip, urban Chinese.

[paul wood]

As to how can money be made at very low prices, it's the old Kwiksave motto, pile them high, sell them cheap. It is better to do 5 million dollars worth at 5% profit than 100,000 dollars at a 100% profit. The amount of times I get e-mails from people who have bought the obvious fakes (3 already this week) that Gavin mentions would suggest that it is quite a lucrative business. Alas I have to let the poor souls down gently. Another example, 4th century Roman Bronze coins are worth about £10 on a very good day, millions (if not billions) were produced, go to middle-eastern souks and you will see not that brilliant fakes on sale for at a pound or two, they are not philathropists, they are making money. The photos you have sent are not clear enough to that one can be certain about their authenticity or otherwise. Forgery is the second oldest profession (and probably not that far behind the oldest).

All the best,

Paul

[Tidbit]

Hi Paul,

These badges are just examples, that can be found across China. However, there is a big difference between military honours and badges like these. Military honours are relatively rare, and generally of a much much higher quality. Some badges can double up as awards, given to good students etc but none count as military honours. At best, they were produced so that young cadres could show off. They were produced in massive numbers (there was an estimated 2.5 - 5 billion Mao badges produced). There was a couple of recalls, but the numbers will be in the billions.

The Soviet badge industry was the most advanced I have seen from Comintern certainly more so than the Chinese which, when it existed, seemed much more state-orientated. The Russians commemorated cars, places, planes, space programs, soccer players, television shows, and so on. Although it is conceivable that companies would try and reproduce a few sputnik badges or the like and pass it off as a 1960s badge - you would make more money going to Volgograd and picking a few up and then sell them in Red Square.

I heard a few companies still produce Mao badges, and some elaborate fakes are around. The vast majority of people will not care if they are genuine 1960s badges or not. I would like some contemporary Mao badge production figures, I cannot imagine it is anywhere near the level of production of thirty years ago.

[JapanX]

So many cheap fakes at one heavily copyrighted photo

Poor Duckadoo ...

P.S. As for the "I just cannot accept that selling the odd badge for $20 is a sustainable business strategy, criminal or otherwise" -simply type "scale economies" in google - this is your answer

[Tidbit]

Sorry about the photograph. Might want to remove it, I am defending the guy.

So many cheap fakes at one heavily copyrighted photo

Poor Duckadoo ...

P.S. As for the "I just cannot accept that selling the odd badge for $20 is a sustainable business strategy, criminal or otherwise" -simply type "scale economies" in google - this is your answer

Economies of scale? I am suggesting that these were produced by the Chinese government!!!!! You, on the other hand, seem to be suggesting that a similar scale economy could be acheived by a criminal gang (with much higher labour costs). So, a mafia don hired an artist to come up with thousands of fantasy badge designs, a large factory, presumably a large labour force, and then started producing Korea-China friendship badges/Yellow River Flood Memorial badges en masse even though billions already exist, readily available in markets across China? Such an event seems to be even more noteworthy than the more plausible explanation that the Chinese government inefficiently mass produced these badges for several years after a vicious civil war to try and unite the country.

Please feel free to substantiate your claim (these are fake) with some good, well-researched evidence as I would be genuinely interested either way.

[JapanX]

I am suggesting that these were produced by the Chinese government!!!!!

In this case Chinese government started to produce even taiwanese decorations (upper right conner)

So, a mafia ...

Mafia

Please feel free to substantiate your claim (these are fake) with some good, well-researched evidence as I would be genuinely interested either way.

Please feel free to substantiate your claim (these were produced by the Chinese government!!!!!) with some good, well-researched evidence as I would be genuinely interested either way.

[Tidbit]

In this case Chinese government started to produce even taiwanese decorations (upper right conner)

Mafia

Please feel free to substantiate your claim (these were produced by the Chinese government!!!!!) with some good, well-researched evidence as I would be genuinely interested either way.

While one must really prove guilt (i.e. something is a forgery), you are right. There will be never any conclusive way to be able to verify the authenticity of badges of this nature. Thousands were produced across China. The exact number of Mao badges variants is unknown, and that has an extensive literature available. Most of the badges I have seen are consistent with the literature pre-Cultural Revolution (see below). Any further reading would be most welcome.

http://museums.cnd.org/cr/old/maobadge/

"First, pre- 1966 badges were primarily medals issued in connection with military or political schools, to soldiers and model workers, or in commemoration of the completion of public works projects or participation in military campaigns, and therefore were worn by only a tiny minority of the population. Examples include medals given to all who served in the "resist America, aid Korea" campaign, students at the "Resist Japan University" in Yanan, and workers who built the Kang-Zang Highway."

[JapanX]

There will be never any conclusive way to be able to verify the authenticity of badges of this nature.

Actually there is only one conclusive way - to know oneself collecting field thoroughly

Badges that you showed in your post #1 are 100% fakes.

Why?

Because some of them are a poor attempts to reproduce known awards from Taiwan, USSR, nationalist China and communist China and others are simply pure phantasy pieces. They all have common (and quite terrible) technological flaws that the real chinese badges don't have.

As for these Mao badges.

You will find some of them here

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/complete_projects/chairman_mao_badges.aspx

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/publications/research_publications_series/research_publications_online/chairman_mao_badges.aspx

Edited April 9, 2013 by JapanX

[Tidbit]

The British museum catalogue is terrible, but nice images.

There was one or two catalogues (in Chinese) which are nowhere near exhaustive, but I think had a list of different badges into the thousands. I have no idea how KMT would be depicted in badges. What I am wondering is where you are getting your information the pre-Cultural Revolution.

I can totally see what you mean, this is an example of a Chinese Azeri Red Banner. It does look like a forgery but I have no way of knowing its age.

[JapanX]

What I am wondering is where you are getting your information the pre-Cultural Revolution.

I was not getting any info about pre-cultural revolution

I simply gave you my "evidences" why these badges (that you showed in post #1) are fakes.

But obviously my evidences weren't "hard" enough to "rock your world"?

In this case I guess "these are those badges. Cheap, government produced commerative badges. "

I can totally see what you mean, this is an example of a Chinese Azeri Red Banner. It does look like a forgery but I have no way of knowing its age.

Sweet!

[Tidbit]

JapanX, you have provided no evidence.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tidbit

[hc8604]

You have to understand, the medals you posted are fakes or fantasies or maybe even copies of types that are rarely seen. There are many designs of common badges or medals produced by the government out there as you mentioned for the masses. The only difference is you have to research on which are fakes. I don't collect CCP stuff often and there are probable restrikes of certain medals and some fakes that are not obvious as the "copper" types posted. You can still find many items for a good price just like Soviet badges. I don't think there is much of a demand because of the number made.

I have seen several ROC type of medals that i have thought were fantasies, but later actually found the real ones, which are mostly local awards, but hardly seen. But they were made out of the "copper" types with the Soviet style ribbons and of course they typical similarities for me to avoid them.

Collecting Chinese items can be interesting at times...

The copper ones are not really copper in my opinion. I have always assumed these contained some if not, very little copper, as copper is a high demand commodity in China.

[JapanX]

JapanX, you have provided no evidence.

As I said

Because some of them are a poor attempts to reproduce known awards from Taiwan, USSR, nationalist China and communist China and others are simply pure phantasy pieces. They all have common (and quite terrible) technological flaws that the real chinese badges don't have.

If these are "not hard enough" for you, then you are simply don't know how the original prototypes look like or the quality (and materials used) of original chinese (republic, nationalist and commies) badges . "They" are not "counterfeiting standard, non-rare postage stamps from the PRCT" - most of the time "they" try to copy (quite terribly) well-known originals or create "new rarity" by combining different original designs. This is why "selling the odd badge for $20 is a sustainable business strategy, criminal or otherwise."

As for "It does look like a forgery but I have no way of knowing its age" - all these fakes appeared for the first time about 10 years. Or maybe you were thinking about this scenario: "Chinese government decided to produced commemorative badge with design of 1922 Azeri order?"

But then again I have no intentions to "rock your world" especially since it is based on such firm foundations

1. "Communists loved badges and awards"

2. "China will have literally billions of these types of badges. But where are all of them?"

3. "My guess is... these are those badges. Cheap, government produced commerative badges"

4."Only the most stupid would bother counterfeiting them. It would be like counterfeiting standard, non-rare postage stamps from the PRC"

5. "Remember, whoever is producing them would be running a company"

6. "I just cannot accept that selling the odd badge for $20 is a sustainable business strategy, criminal or otherwise."

Your logic is impeccable!

Edited April 10, 2013 by JapanX

[Tidbit]

You have to understand, the medals you posted are fakes or fantasies or maybe even copies of types that are rarely seen. There are many designs of common badges or medals produced by the government out there as you mentioned for the masses. The only difference is you have to research on which are fakes. I don't collect CCP stuff often and there are probable restrikes of certain medals and some fakes that are not obvious as the "copper" types posted. You can still find many items for a good price just like Soviet badges. I don't think there is much of a demand because of the number made.

I have seen several ROC type of medals that i have thought were fantasies, but later actually found the real ones, which are mostly local awards, but hardly seen. But they were made out of the "copper" types with the Soviet style ribbons and of course they typical similarities for me to avoid them.

Collecting Chinese items can be interesting at times...

The copper ones are not really copper in my opinion. I have always assumed these contained some if not, very little copper, as copper is a high demand commodity in China.

hc8604,

Do not make the same mistake as JapanX. I am not claiming these are real. I am simply stating that I have not found any evidence either way, and I have explained why I think they could be real. Have you got any catalogue pictures of the more obscure, rural civilian badges? What materials were likely used in them? Whenever I do research on fakes, I always end up in a place like this with people shouting they are fakes. Normally claiming that a polyester ribbon is not on any Chinese award. Of course, no source is ever given.

I will probably start doing some trace metal analysis on these badges, see what they are made of. I too would have thought most copper (maybe even aluminium) alloys (e.g. brass, cupronickel) would be prohibitively expensive for counterfeits of cheap badges of this nature but more likely to be used by 1960's state enterprises which have vertical monopolies (but could be wrong). I had really hoped to be pointed to some good quality research/catalogues which could help me understand chinese badge production (either contemporary psuedo-black market and pre-Cultural Revolution).

[JapanX]

Do not make the same mistake as JapanX. I am not claiming these are real. I am simply stating that I have not found any evidence either way, and I have explained why I think they could be real.

As I said earlier - your logic is impeccable!

[paul wood]

Tidbit,

Before you comment any further I would respectfully suggest you read Ed Haynes article on the Awards of the Peoples Republic of China in the March-April JOMSA which I believe is available on the OMSA web siite. It think you might find it quite educational as to the issuing polic PRC.

All the best,

Paul

[hc8604]

How can 70 years of medals look all the same? Same material, same ribbon suspension, same (almost) reverse font style, same reverse simplified characters, same enamel paint type, etc. Especially those of, as JapanX quoted himself, that of Nationalist/KMT/CCP medals, Manchuria, and Soviet medals, why would the CCP government award the peasants KMT medals?

Well, good luck on your research... you will definitely need rock solid evidence to prove to the 99.9% of Chinese medal collectors from all over the world. Especially to the Chinese mainland collectors who even regard these as modern fakes. I would just avoid these before time and money is invested into this and just collect the well known stuff.

[Tidbit]

My line of thinking is that they would/should be cheap either way (if they are made by government or not) so I would never pay a lot for them. About the KMT medals: I have no idea how badge production was affected by the civil war, or if any attempt was made to celebrate sacrifices of the KMT/Soviet Union in the struggle against Japan. It is probable they are fake.

I will finish by saying that if these fakes are as endemic as you are suggesting (i.e. there are more fakes than genuine badges), such a phenomenon is a rather intriguing, comically ironic development but I can see the problem it presents for collectors of military awards.