Unidentified Ribbon Bar with two Finnish Liberty Crosses

[Mikko13]

Hello,

I was lucky to buy this nice ribbon bar at Christian's last auction.

I already discussed it with Christian, but we could not find any name for it - difficult, because there might be no list for German's receiving Liberty Crosses. It is also not sure, if these Liberty Crosses have been awarded for duty in 1918 or 1941.

Maybe out there is someone who is able to build up a career for this unidentified soldier...or even recognize whether the Liberty Crosses have been awarded for WW1 or WW2 or - or one for WW1 and the other for WW2.

Best regards

Mikko

[Guest Rick Research]

3rd Class as a Leutnant in 1918, 2nd Class as a Major (E) in WW2... somebody needs to get the Finnish Archive individual index cards transcribed and publishable. Not much needs to be "secret" about either war, any more.

[Dave Danner]

I know of at least one officer with a 1918 and a 1941 Cross of Liberty, but he was a Saxon and had the Albert Order and White Falcon.

[Guest Rick Research]

There were very few Badeners (artillery, if I could find my notes) in Finland in 1918--note this officer was NOT wearing the 1918 Independence War Medal ribbon, so he might have been there in the summer of 1918, after the fighting but when Germans were still being decorated. I have a very junior 1918 Baden Feldart Rgt 76 Leutnant's ribbon bar, also an (E) officer-- also no 1918 IWM ribbon and also with the Westwall Medal.

[christerd]

It could be two 1941 Crosses like : Franz Augsberger , he got 3rd class 1941 and 2nd class 1941

Hans Collani also 3rd / 2nd + Eastern Front Medal

I think I have all German who got 1941 Crosses , and these was the only I found with both 2nd and 3rd class.

I have only 20 names for 1918 3rd class Cross to germans so there is a " black hole" there, probably a 3rd class 1918 then.

Christer

Edited June 16, 2013 by christerd

[christerd]

Ohhps , just realized that I don´t have any known German with the combo 1918 3rd and 1941 2nd

What was the name of that Saxon Officer Dave ?

I love to get one more name to my never ending research

Christer

[Dave Danner]

Christer:

Körner, Dipl.-Landw. Gottfried

* 28.10.1896 in Leipzig.

He was a Lt. in the Kgl. Sächs. Karabinier-Regiment, commanded to the Finnish Army from April to December 1918. He was Ib on the staff of the 1.Finn.Div. and an instructor at the Finnish Fähnrich-Schule Frederikshamm.

Besides his German decorations, he received the Cross of Liberty on 25.10.18 and the Independence War Medal (no date given). The entry in the Saxon Kriegsrangliste is "Fi.F.R2", which follows the Saxon style for a Ritterkreuz 2.Klasse of an order, so this would probably correspond to a Cross of Liberty 4th Class. However, I thought most Germans got a "bump", so even a Leutnant would get the 3rd Class.

He was a Hilfsoffizier/Gehilfe beim Militär-Attaché in Helsingfors from 1.3.36 to 18.6.41, and then OKH Verbindungs-Offizier zum Armeeoberkommando 18 from 19.6.41 to 14.10.41. He was a Hauptmann (E), and was promoted to Major on 1.3.40 while in Finland. His August 1942 officer evaluation report lists his "Auszeichnungen des jetzigen Krieges" as the KVK2X and the Cross of Liberty 3rd Class with Swords. The KVK2X was awarded on 1.9.41, but no date is given for the Cross of Liberty.

By the way, there was another Körner from the Karabinier-Regiment, Lt.d.R. Rudolf Körner, who also served in Finland. He was Deutscher Adjutant to Karelian Jäger-Rgt. zu Pferde Nr. 3. He received the Cross of Liberty 3rd Class and the Independence War Medal. The two Körners were at best cousins - Gottfried's father was a Geh.Reg.Rat in Leipzig and Rudolf was born in South Africa where his father was a businessman.

Regards,
Dave

Edited June 16, 2013 by Dave Danner

[Dave Danner]

One Badener who can be ruled out:

Hanns-Walther Hammer, * 6.3.1892 in Heidelberg. Lt.z.S./OLt.z.S., Seeflieger. Received the EK1&2, BZ3bX, TH, FinnFK3. He was a Maj./OTL d.R.z.V. in the Luftwaffe, so no Wehrmacht DA, especially without a Luftwaffe eagle. No idea what else he might have gotten in World War II.

[Mikko13]

Hello Dave,

thank you. So you think, that this guy could have possessed the above pictured ribbon bar?

How can one distinguish properly if the Liberty cross was either given for WW1 or WW2? The same question could be asked concerning the class of the cross. One could build up a tree diagramm:

WW1 second class - WW1 third class

WW1 third class - WW1 fourth class

WW1 second class - WW2 fourth class

WW1 second class - WW2 third class

WW1 second class - WW2 second class

WW1 third class - WW2 second class

WW1 third class - WW2 third class

WW1 third class - WW2 fourth class

WW1 fourth class - WW2 second class

WW1 fourth class - WW2 third class

WW1 fourth class - WW2 fourth class

By the way, how does a fourth class look like on a ribbon bar?

Mikko

[Dave Danner]

Hi Mikko,

No. It would not be Hammer. He was a Luftwaffe reserve officer. A single 4-year Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnung for a World War I veteran usually means an Ergänzungs-Offizier. The straight eagle device on the ribbon was used by the Heer and Kriegsmarine. The Luftwaffe Dienstauszeichnung had a Luftwaffe eagle, with curved wings.

As I understand it, the 3rd and 4th classes look the same, only the device is different - gold for the 3rd and silver for the 4th. Here is a ribbon bar with one 3rd Class and two 4th Classes, one with oakleaves, along with the Winter War and Continuation War Medals:

Dave

[christerd]

Mikko your ribbonbar is almost certain a 2nd Class and a 3rd Class , the ribbon för the 2nd Class is different and

The devices are in silver för 4th Class and Gold för 3rd Class.

Tanks Dave ! Now I have a couple of more names.

Christer