Bavarian LW medal bar with MVK am Beamtenband

[Claudio]

Dear fellow collectors,

I'd like to show you my latest purchase: an interesting medal bar of a very likely senior LW fonctionary (Beamte), with a Hindenburg cross marked Godet & Sohn.

Here's the description of the medals:

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909)

? Bayern, Milit?rverdienstkreuz 2. Kl. mit Krone und Schwertern am Beamtenband (OEK 428)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803), Hersteller G & S (Godet & Sohn)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Dienstauszeichnung 1. Klasse f?r 25 Dienstjahre der LW (OEK 3857)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Dienstauszeichnung 3. Klasse f?r 12 Dienstjahre der LW (OEK 3859)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 13. M?rz 1938, Anschluss ?sterreichs (OEK 3516)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938, Anschluss Sudetenland mit Spange ?Prager Burg? (OEK 3817 + 3818)

One ribbon bar is with the correct MVK Beamtenband and the other with an uncorrect (maybe because out of stock) MVK war merit ribbon.

Your comments and opinions are most appreciate, especially regarding the MVK 2. Kl. mit Kr. u. Schwertern. Although the combination is quite rare, considering the MVK 2. Kl. mit Kr. u. Schwertern am Beamtenband, I don't think this bar could be researchable, if I won't find the picture of this medal bar's holder wearing it.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Back:

[Scott]

Very nice set - congratulations!

Scott

[Guest Rick Research]

Very interesting Godet set, Claudio.

The MVK2XmKr, at least from the ones shown in the Intendantur Ehrenrangliste, went to the generic "Beamter-Stellvertertreter" rank of Deputy-Paymasters etc. Every single one in the Bavarian recipients had one or the other Luitpold Jubilee Medal...

so I think this bar belonged to a Prussian, not a Bavarian.

If the rolls ever become available, that should certainly dramatically reduce the number of potential suspects, even though Luftwaffe officer personnel remain the great bottomless abyss of Third Reich research. There were apparently Reichwehr Beamten Rank Lists-- the late Don Frailey mentioned having several to me years ago, though I've never seen any. With the 25 and 12, one of those may also help identify the original wearer someday.

He may have hit the "glass ceiling" at Oberleutnant-equivalent, but he was certainly well travelled!!!

[WNickel]

Hi Claudio,

I have 1883 wearers of the BMVK 2.class am Beamtenband - 850 of them were Zahlmeister oder Unterzahlmeister...no chance

Werner

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, but how many of THEM were Prussian/navy, Werner? There's no Luitpold Jubilee. Given the age of the recipients even in the First War, I can't imagine a Bavarian recipient without the 1911/12 Luitpold Medal.

Claudio's bar is like this one of mine:

Can't be an MVO3X am KV Band with a Red Eagle 4, so must be an MVK1X and a General Decoration in Silver Medal. dark blue backing... so an ANCIENT naval Beamter circa 1936-39. No Luitpold Jubilee.

[Claudio]

Thank you, Werner, for your interesting information about the stastics of the MVK2 am Beamtenband. Do you know how many MVK1 am Beamtenband were awarded? They must be definetely less than 500...

Here I have some interesting statistics... maybe any of you, dear researchers, could complete or correct this list.

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 175

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 700

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 3?800

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 15?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse am Beamtenband 1?883

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 73?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 290?000

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

And how many BVMK3 am Beamtenband were awarded??

Here's my bar with a BVMK3...

[Bernd D]

Thank you, Werner, for your interesting information about the stastics of the MVK2 am Beamtenband. Do you know how many MVK1 am Beamtenband were awarded? They must be definetely less than 500...

Here I have some interesting statistics... maybe any of you, dear researchers, could complete or correct this list.

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 175

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 700

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 3?800

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 15?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse am Beamtenband 1?883

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 73?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 290?000

Ciao,

Claudio

MVK 1. Klasse mit Schwertern am Band f?r Kriegsverdienst (Beamtenband): ca. 1.700

MVK 2. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern am Band f?r Kriegsverdienst: ca. 2.600

You can find the name "Beamtenband" only in Nimmergut?s book nowhere else. On certificates you find ... am Bande f?r Kriegsverdienst, which is the correct name.

Bernd

[Claudio]

Hi Bernd,

Can I ask you, where did you get these numbers for the MVKs am Bande f?r Kriegverdienst? I don't think that your numbers for the MVK1 am Bande f. Kriegsverdienst can be correct...

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited September 1, 2007 by Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

I think Bernd's got the actual ROLLS, Claudio, so that beats any guesstimates, including my own ancient ones. I tried guesstimating from the 1918 Personal-Nachrichten, which I had on loan from the Library of Congress back when Jimmy Carter was President, using the poublished totals of the combatant types. Apparently the ones gazetted in the PN are like the Prussian Milit?r Wochenblatt numbers-- less than reality.

I'm amazed there were that many too, given how few over-the-hill "elderly" rear area NCOs and officials there must have been and the seeming likelihood of desk riders getting anything more exciting than a Ludwigkreuz.

I just hope I live long enough to see the Bavarian WW1 rolls PRINTED (hint hint!).

After all, I just finished typing over one hundred thousand award entries and I'm still perfectly normal and as sane as I ever was before I started.

[Claudio]

I am surprised... if the awards of the MVK1 am Bande f. Kriegsverdienst (Beamtenband) are 1'600 that means that the MVK1 am Kriegsband are at least 5-6 times more. In this case the MVK1s are much less rare than expected. But still on the market you see 90% of the available MVK1s are "improved" ones (MVK3s gilted and with the center enameled) and the real MVK1s (Verleihungsst?cke, with multiple parts center gold medallion cypher "L") are still very hard to find indeed! How could you explain this?

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

I certainly can't. I've had exactly THREE M1913 MVK1Xs in 30 years of collecting here, all mounted in groups.

The Rolls will reveal all.

It shouldn't take too long to type them up, class by class by class. I did 5,000 SMKs in a month... full time.

[Bernd D]

I certainly can't. I've had exactly THREE M1913 MVK1Xs in 30 years of collecting here, all mounted in groups.

The Rolls will reveal all.

It shouldn't take too long to type them up, class by class by class. I did 5,000 SMKs in a month... full time.

Rick

in 2008 I hope I will finish and stop with MVO/MVK. At the moment I have 19.000 entries. When I stop all, MVO and MVK, peacetime awards will be done. All MVOx exempt 4th class with swords after September 1914. All MVK 1st class and MVK 2nd with crown and swords. Finally over 25.000 entries. In part time.

Btw I just finished the list of the Kolonial-Denkm?nze.

Bernd

[WNickel]

Hi,

here my actual numbers

all decoration am Beamtenband (Band f?r kriegsverdienste)

MVK 1 365

MVK 1 x 1191

MVK 1 mKr 24

MVK 1 mKr+x 64

MVK 2 173

MVK 2 x 1652

MVK 2 mKr 468

MVK 2 mKr+x 1883

MVK 3 24

MVK 3 x 907

MVK 3 mKr 71

MVK 3 mKr+x 149

Bernd will find some wearers more...

Werner

[WNickel]

...ok, let us make a Beamten-thread...

[WNickel]

..another one..

[WNickel]

...

[WNickel]

...

[WNickel]

...

[WNickel]

...

[WNickel]

..

[WNickel]

...and the top of all.... Why????

[Bernd D]

...ok, let us make a Beamten-thread...

No job is finished until the paper work is done.

[Bernd D]