WW1 and WW2 Commonwealth Groupings

[Guest Darrell]

Hi guys,

There are a few posts out there (jncluding mine which Ive posted before), but I'd like to see some groupings of WW1 or WW2 that you guys own. Doesnt have to be fancy or filled with Gallantry, but let's see what you got

I'll start with 3 groups.

1. A British Trio all named to Private Albert Robert Russell (which came with the Roll Call of his awards):

Edited October 21, 2005 by Darrell

[Guest Darrell]

Reverse:

[Guest Darrell]

Second up, an unknown grouping:

[Guest Darrell]

Third, my uncles grouping from WW 2 as well:

[Guest Darrell]

Reverse:

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks for the thread, Darrell. I'll try (try!) not to bore people here witha few postings that I have not put up on my other threads (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2400 or http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2331 or http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2450)

1-

Lieutenant-Colonel Barkat Khan, Bahadur, Maler Kotla Sappers and Miners

A puzzling group. Which ones aren't?!

1- Order of British India, 2nd class -- not his, but shown here representationally -- 17 August 1917 for Mesopotamia to Major Barkat Khan, 1st Company Maler Kotla Sappers and Miners (ISF List 1 Jan 1918, p. 64b)

2- India Medal, 1895 - clasps Punjab-NWF, Samana, Tirah -- missing, but shown in war services section of ISF List 1 Jan 1918, p. 72 -- anyone have it???

3- China 1900 -- "51 Havildar Barkat Khan, Malerkotla I. S. Sappers"

4- British War Medal -- "MAJ BARKAT KHAN, MALERKOTLA I. S. SPRS."

5- Allied Victory Medal -- unnamed, but it came with the group -- restoration? -- he was not mentioned in despatches

6- Durbar 1911 -- unnamed -- not on roll, but shown as qualified in ISF List 1 Jan 1918, p. 81 -- self-awarded?

7- Jubilee 1935 -- unnamed -- shown on roll (p. 62) as "Major Barkat Khan, O.B.I., late of tha Malerkotla State Forces"

Shown in ISF List 1 Jan 1918, p. 50 as

Lieutenant-Colonel Barkat Khan

Commandant, 2nd Reserve Company, Maler Kotla Imperial Service Sappers

Entered service 6 June 1891

Appointed to the corps 6 September 1891

Present Appointment 1 April 1917

Order of British India, 2nd class

His war services and other medal entitlements are as shown above

Head and McClenaghan, vol. V, pt. II, add some to to this.

Is he probbaly not missing a 1914-15 Star, as he seems to have been sent out to Mesopotamia only in Februarty 1916 with a draft of reinforcements. The group would be missing the IGS 95 and "his" Victory Medal. BUT, in taking to other ISF collectors, a pattern of unnamed Victory Medals for the Malerkotla Sappers seems to be emerging?! Likely not missing an IGS08 for Afghanistan, as only the 1st company seems to have been deployed.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

2-

42378 Sapper Ujagar Singh, Bombay Sappers and Miners Group

Not a terribly unusual group, but one that wants research. Pre-Dec. 1941 in Mayala, possible/probable POW?

1- Independence Medal 1947 - unnamed

2- 1939-45 Star - 42378 SPR. UJAGAR SINGH, BOMBAY S. & M. GP.

3- Pacific Star - 42378 SPR. UJAGAR SINGH, BOMBAY S. & M. GP.

4- Defence Medal - unnamed

5- WWII War Medal - 42378 SPR. UJAGAR SINGH, BOMBAY S. & M. GP.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

3-

21633173 Grenadier Dharam Singh, Grenadiers

1- Sainya Seva Medal - Jammu Kashmir - 21633173 GDR. DHARAM SINGH, GRS.

2- The Indian Independence Medal, 1947 - 21626 SEP. DHARAM SINGH, GRS.

3- 1939-45 Star - 2633173 SEP. DHARAM SINGH, IND. GRS.

4- Burma Star - 2633173 SEP. DHARAM SINGH, IND. GRS.

5- The War Medal, 1939-45 - 2633173 SEP. DHARAM SINGH, IND. GRS.

6- The India Service Medal, 1939-45 - 2633173 SEP. DHARAM SINGH, IND. GRS.

A nice all-named pre- and post-1947 group.

(Enough for now, can/will add more later if others can stand it.)

[Guest Darrell]

Outstanding Ed !! Keep 'em coming when you have time

I could look at these all day

[Ed_Haynes]

4-

OK, one more before calling it "quits" for the night.

As Pakistani WWII medals were unnamed (shame) and as they are widely widely faked (double shame), I cannot guarantee the authenticity of this group, though my "gut" says it is "OK".

PAK/200043 AC2 MOHD SAFDAR. R.P.A.F.

1- General Service Medal: Kashmir 1948

2- Independence Medal

3- 1939-45 Star

4- WWII War Medal

5- Indian Service Medal

Only the Independence Medal is named, as shown above. He must have left by 1956, or there would have been a Republic Medal. Original ragged mounting.

[Ed_Haynes]

5-

OK, I lied.

A group I paid far FAR too much for, but Indian WWI trios have been exceedingly rare until the last year or so. (A long story here.)

Trio to 3060 Naik Muhammad Sharif, 104th Rifles.

He turned out to be a Kut POW and probably MiD. As a Muslim, it seems likely that not much was left of him by the time he was released., (While their British officers sat drinking wine on the Bosphorous with their poodles, Indian POWs from Kut has No Fun At All as guests of the Ottiomam Caliph and Emperor.)

(Lousy scan, will do better if I am allowed to edit this when I can scan the real medals in hand.)

Edited October 21, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Darrell]

4-As Pakistani WWII medals were unnamed (shame) and as they are widely widely faked (double shame), I cannot guarantee the authenticity of this group, though my "gut" says it is "OK".

You mean the medals OR the grouping of them are widely faked?

[Ed_Haynes]

You mean the medals OR the grouping of them are widely faked?

Well, mainly groups. As the medals are unnamed, and the fakers in Islamabad have sacks of them, no reason to fake the medals: just one from sack 1, one from sack 4, one from sack, 3, add a named Pakistan Medal 1947, . . . !

Edited October 21, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Darrell]

Well, mainly groups. As the medals are unnamed, and the fakers in Islamabad have sacks of them, no reason to fake the medals: just one from sack 1, one from sack 4, one from sack, 3, add a named Pakistan Medal 1947, . . . !

ahh ok .. that's what I thought ...

[Mossy]

My only mounted set so far. A constabulary pair to Charles Lyon. Doesnt look researchable unfortunatly.

The bar is for long service, 1941.

Sam.

[Guest Darrell]

c'mon people dont be bashful ... let's see 'em ... I know you got 'em

[Ed_Haynes]

OK, a few more.

6-

An odd group.

9347 Sepoy Bakshi Singh, Frontier Force Rifles

1- 1939-45 Star - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI SINGH, F. F. RIF.

2- Africa Star - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI RAM, F. F. RIF.

3- War Medal - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI SINGH, F.F. RIF.

4- India Service Medal - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI SINGH, F.F. RIF.

He must have qualified for the ISM before going to Africa, as a Defence Medal would be a more common pairing here.

A nice all-named Indian WWII group, though.

Edited October 22, 2005 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

7-

One that has been the subject of some research back-and-forth.

Lieutenant (S) P. G. Gokhale, Royal Indian Navy

1- Burma Star - unnamed, "restoration"

2- WWII War Medal - "LT.(S) P.G. GOKHALE, R.I.N.V.R."

3- Naval General Service Medal - George VI, 2nd variety - MINESWEEPING 1945-51 - "LT. (S) P.G. GOKHALE, R.I.N."

Shown in WWII Official History (p. 370) as serving in Burma Operations in the H.M.I.S. Rohilkhand (minesweeper). He was (apparently) commissioned 26 May 1945 (too late for Atlantic Star service and maybe too late for other qualifications?). The Royal Indian Navy were involved in minesweeping operations in the Malacca Straits commencing 2 September 1945. This included the 37th Mine Sweeping Flotilla consisting of nine minesweepers including the Rohilkhand, completing operations there by 13 November 1945. They then left Singapore and were involved in various other operations until the end of the year.

The Rohilkhand survived into the independent Indian Navy but had to be scrapped in 1956 after the 1948 cyclone that hit Bombay.

Much research awaits.

The group originally came with 1939-45 and Burma Stars (though it had first appeared on the market as just the last two medals). Increasingly, Gokhale's stars are appearing to be "restorations", though he was apparently qualified for the Burma Star, but not the 1939-45 Star. Need to check Indian Navy Lists.

[Guest Darrell]

OK, a few more.

6-

An odd group.

9347 Sepoy Bakshi Singh, Frontier Force Rifles

1- 1939-45 Star - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI SINGH, F. F. RIF.

2- Africa Star - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI RAM, F. F. RIF.

3- War Medal - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI SINGH, F.F. RIF.

4- India Service Medal - 9347 SEP. BAKSHI SINGH, F.F. RIF.

He must have qualified for the ISM before going to Africa, as a Defence Medal would be a more common pairing here.

A nice all-named Indian WWII group, though.

Interesting Ed, you dont see the stars named very often. I have one Africa Star named, but that's it. Could you show a reverse shot of this group? Thanks.

[Ed_Haynes]

I am trying to restrict these postings to things I haven't put up elsewhere on this forum. Hope I am successful.

8-

Colonel Daud Khan, Sardar Bahadur, Alwar Imperial Service Infantry

[Ed_Haynes]

One final one for now. I really don't want to flood the thread with Asian "exotica".

9-

IEC-8879 Lieutenant-Colonel Thakur Hanuman Singh Rajputana States' Forces (Kachhawa Horse and Jaipur Pony Company, Jaipur State Forces)

(Sorry for the naked Jubilee medal, it is dressed now but this is the only scan I could locate.)

entered service 1 Nov 1926

commissioned 25 Jul 1928

Lieutenant ???

Captain ???

Major 25 Jul 1940

Qualified in small arms

Senior Officers School (Indian States Forces)

Field Works Course (All Arms), Indian States Forces

Qualified at the Equitation School, Saugour

MBE by Gazette of India, 106-H, 13 April 1946, pt. 1, sect. 1, p. 530 (alphabetized under the "T"), repeating Supplement to the London Gazette 37433 of 17 January 1946: "for gallant and distinguished services in Burma", M.B.E. to "Major (temporary) Thakur Hanuman Singh (8879), Indian State Forces"

WO 373/81:

?ARAKAN

?During the period 16 Feb - 15 May 45 this unit has performed outstandingly and kept up a high standard of fitness and performance. This has been largely due to the drive and energy of Maj HANUMAN SINGH, who although he has been in command since 1940, has been on active service continuously since 1942, has succeeded in maintaining the high traditions of his unit.

?is long and devoted service, and the fact that he has kept up such a high standard for such a long period - including three continuous monsoons in very bad country - deserve recognition.?

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting Ed, you dont see the stars named very often. I have one Africa Star named, but that's it. Could you show a reverse shot of this group? Thanks.

Normally, WWII medals (maybe 80% of them) to Indians (in the post-1947 meaning) are named. Pakistan named none, opening wonderful opportunities for the fakers of groups to flourish. It isn't widely known, I guess, that Indian WWII groups, while uncommon all-named, are even more uncommon all-unnamed (and, for this, there is usually a reason and a pattern). As I say, maybe 80% of medals in legitimate groups are named.

With one major project out of the way, finishing a detailed study of WWII Indian naming patterns is next on my agenda.

A sample (enhanced for legibility).

[Guest Darrell]

Thanks Ed. I was just curious how others were stamped as well. Just for others reference, here is my named Africa reverse pic:

[Guest Darrell]

No one else has any? No one cares?

[Ed_Haynes]

No one else has any? No one cares?

Maybe just the two of us, Darrell? Non-German stuff has limited audience?

While I'm sensitive to flooding the forum (and the thread) with too much South Asian stuff, I'll feed the hungry thread when I can get some scans done.