PRUSSIAN DIPLOMATIC MEDAL BAR.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen, just spotted this bar:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Ordensspange-Diplomat_W...1QQcmdZViewItem

Seller claims it belonged to a "DIPLOMAT"

but its strange as its got a Combatant EKII. followed by A War Service Help Cross,

A Hindenberg NON-COMBATANT next to a German Legion of Honour for Combatant!!

Followed by an Order of the Red Eagle without Crown & Swords, next to a Romanian King Carol Jubilee Medal with PRO PATRIA BAR, only ever given to Romanian civillians who helped the military with donations.

And to top it off a Venezualan Simon Boliviar Medal.

Surely not possible. . . .

Kevin in Deva

[Stogieman]

Well, if it's a "made" bar it's one of the more creative ones we've seen in some time. I think it's more realistic that we have a WW1 soldier in some post 1935 diplomatic position. This isn't out of the realm of reality in entirety.... the only real issue I have is the Ehren Legion Medal. I'm sure my other half will weigh in soon. he has several other bars that look quite nice including a couple of scarcer Baden Medals.

[Stogieman]

additional seller photo

[Kev in Deva]

Well, if it's a "made" bar it's one of the more creative ones we've seen in some time. I think it's more realistic that we have a WW1 soldier in some post 1935 diplomatic position. This isn't out of the realm of reality in entirety.... the only real issue I have is the Ehren Legion Medal. I'm sure my other half will weigh in soon. he has several other bars that look quite nice including a couple of scarcer Baden Medals.

Hallo stogieman

thanks for the comments, hopefully all will be revealed by our very own medal guru's, and nice job on the pictures, Its only now I notice the last medal has been added on as an extension of an exsisting bar.

I still think it strange with reference the Romanian medal, from what I could learn, the bar "PRO PATRIA" to the medal was only given with the civilian award for donating large sums of money or material to the Romanian Military in WW1, and the Romanians were fighting Germany in WW1

Kevin in Deva.

[webr55]

I'm not too worried about the Ehrenlegion, bars like this exist. Wearers who just didn't care mixing official and non-official awards.

Back seems ok, last medal was added later, but better pics would be needed.

What I don't understand, but maybe it's just my fault: This guy was in the armed forces in WW1 (Hindenburg!). He's got an RAO4, so was at least a senior Hauptmann (or equivalent) rank in 1914. But how come he doesn't have ANY LS decoration in 1934?

[Kev in Deva]

I'm not too worried about the Ehrenlegion, bars like this exist. Wearers who just didn't care mixing official and non-official awards.

Back seems ok, last medal was added later, but better pics would be needed.

What I don't understand, but maybe it's just my fault: This guy was in the armed forces in WW1 (Hindenburg!). He's got an RAO4, so was at least a senior Hauptmann (or equivalent) rank in 1914. But how come he doesn't have ANY LS decoration in 1934?

Hallo webr55

I was under the impresssion that the iii reich ridgedly enforced the medal regulations, as a "diplomat" this guy would have had some fair exposure to the "high and mightyness" of the iii reich, would he risk getting a bollacking by displaying the wrong combination of medals,?? after all the Civil-service - diplomatic corps was a cut-throat business, and it still dosent explain the very common Romanian order and bar.

Kevin in Deva.

[Guest Rick Research]

There is no military long service award here from the Imperial period, nor a civil service one from the Third Reich. The owner could possibly have been past retirement age by the mid 1930s.

The Red Eagle Order bespeaks someone of usually about 40 or so, having achieved a rank or title equivalent to a senior Captain or junior Major... and we can take that as being BEFORE 1914.

The Ehrenlegion and Hindenburg do not indeed belong together.

The Iron Cross is on a combatant ribbon, and yet the Hindenburg Cross is on a NONcombatant ribbon.

So what does that say, so far?

To me, a former career officer who retired zD before getting a long service award before the war, then came back as a war's duration recalled officer at home. That is, yes indeedy, one of the "merit in the homeland" EK2s in this MOUNTED combination of "black white" EK and home front HC. IF military, then he joined at 1897 or later (no Centenary Medal), which makes squeezing in a Red Eagle before the war and resigning more likely navy than army.

We often see VERY peculiar and invariably "invisible" Rumanian medals in German groups. I think Claudio ended up with a similar case to a reserve cavalry officer with something like this.

The Venezuelan Order is where this MAY tell us whether this guy was indeed a pre-1914 regular officer or if he was an honorary Consul sort of "diplomat."

Old Simon Bolivar immediately brings NAVY to mind, but this could also equally have been Army...

or a Consul.

I do not think this wearer was a "diplomat" in the sense of Embassy personnel in the CAREER "Diplomatic Corps," but could well have been the sort of businessman resident home or abroad who was/is still today likely to be named a local Consul.

It might be traceable, but then again it might not. If civilian, the odds are slim. If military, being FORMER military is likely to make this fellow slip through the cracks.

It's a nice bar, though I personally always hate seeing these circa 1934 mounts (note the cheapo added on an extension rather than completely remounting) with the Weimar era vanity awards that had been banned still on there with the Hindenburg. Aside from that, it is weird and wonderful.

[webr55]

Makes sense, yes.

But still, he would have had to be very effective in dodging both the Centenary and the XXV (AFTER WW1) while still getting the RAO4. Like for example, in from 1898-1910, RAO4 right before dropping out, recalled 1914-19, according to Imperial math makes 13 + 12 = 25 ... oops ... already there ...

[Stogieman]

See, told ya it was possible! ;>) Bid, Bid, BID!!!!

[HeikoGrusdat]

just a short note after a very intensive discussion on a german forum..... I have read the Stiftungsurkunde of the Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer and the Ehrenkreuz f?r Kriegsteilnehmer (Hindenburg with and without swords) very carefully - not all the medal bars with EK2 black-white and Hindenburg without swords are HOMEFRONT EK2`s - NO NO

It is stated in the document that every soldier that made ONE BATTLE, ONE FIGHT, ONE SIEGE OR ONE ATTACK should get the Hindenburg with swords - ALL OTHERS (soldiers and civillians connected to the war) should get the Hindenburg without swords. So you could get a REGULAR EK2 on black-white for some service near to the front - but you never heard a shot within a mile : Hindenburg WITHOUT swords...

Now you will never know if it is a homefront EK2 without seeing the award document, and I have seen only 2 in my life for the homefront EK2.....

[Guest Rick Research]

Counting mine? (I have the rest of Hauptmann D?hring's WW1 award documents as well.)

[attachmentid=36177]

I've been very careful to avoid posting "all" of this, lest Naughty People start cranking out forgeries. (Though the watermarked paper'll catch them out, oho.) But here's the CRUCIAL bit:

[attachmentid=36179]

if it doesn't say "for war merit in the homeland" it's not a "black-white... white-black."

Now, I agree that we do not want to encourage anybody to make up "rare" bars by simply swapping an ordinary noncombatant Hindenburg on a combatant EK medal bar...

but I would be EXTREMELY interested to see a documented group for somebody who GOT a frontline "black white" EK at the front AND a noncombatant Hindenburg! Like the legendary "white black" EK2 with 1939 Spange...

while theoretically possible, I cannot see any real way that could have ever been possible.

I have certainly never seen or heard of such a group in all my years collecting, and I love weird things. I have searched them out my entire collecting life.

Weird? How about an noncombatant Rechnungrat's "white black" 1914 EK2...

and a wound badge!

[attachmentid=36188]

I would have LOVED to see this man's--assuming he was still alive around age 90--COMBATANT Hindenburg Cross medal bar... with NONcombatant EK2!

[Daniel Murphy]

Just continues to show that you can never say never in collecting Imperial German. Great job Rick and Rick.

Dan Murphy

[HeikoGrusdat]

That`s another type of award document The two that I know are written "F?r Kriegsverdienste in der Heimat AM SCHWARZ-WEI?EN BANDE" !!!

[Stogieman]

Well, with 13.5 hours to go...... 400- Euro and climbing!