Romania Looking for Information with regards the wearing of Foreign decorations awarded to members of the Wehrmact in WW2

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen, sorry for the long title of this Topic Title.

Recently I have noticed the selling on Ebay of the WW2 Romanian "Crusade Against Communisum" 1941 medal, while the medal was awarded to many German troops the recent auctions have begun to feature strange crossed sword devices on the ribbon, and the descriptions are also being beefed up with Bullshine as well.

There were a number of Battle-bars allowed to be afixed to the ribbon, but these have been causing controvesy as well, they came in Silver and Bronze, and debate still rages as to what the silver denotes, Battle-bars for the German awards seem to be available in a smaller size because the Germans favoured a 25mm / 26mm ribbon as opposed to the Romanian ribbon being 38mm.

German size bars have been observed sewn to the larger Romanian ribbon, these tend to stand out because the oval ends of the bars are supposed to be bent back behind the ribbon, leaving only the name showing to the front, also some of the oval ends bear a single punch mark for sewing to the ribbon others are found without this and I believe that some of these are modern repros.

There are also spelling differences in some of the Romanian place names, but that might be ignorance of the official maker in Germany in WW2, a model of the Romanian medal is also believed to have been produced in Germany and Austria, this comes without the designer name "P.Grant" under the female head of Romania.

Here is an example of the sellers spiel:

Orden Kampf gegen den Kommunismus, 2.WK mit Schwerter

Orden Kampf gegen den Kommunismus, 2.WK mit zus?tzlicher goldener Schwerterauflage auf dem Band

With Goldern Swords on the ribbon!!!! * *

verliehen unter anderem an Angeh?rige der deutschen Wehrmacht die im Rahmen der Kampfhandlungen mit den rum?nischen Verb?ndeten w?hrend des 2. Weltkrieges gek?mpft hatten. Gestiftet am 1.4.1942 von K?nig Michael I. von Rum?nien.

Dieser Orden wurde besonderen Offizieren der rum?nischen Eisernen Garde verliehen, damals gab es eine Elitetruppe von Legion?ren die sich mit Deutschland verbunden hatten. Der Orden wurde auch wie bereits erw?hnt an deutsche Soldaten verliehen.

/ This Order was worn by an Officer of the Romanian IRON GUARD, he was a member of an ELITE TROOP of the IRON GUARD who joined with the German Army, the Order was also given to German soldiers.

Auf der Vorderseite des Ordens ist das Kopfbild von P. Grant, einem Minister des damaligen K?nigs von Rum?nien und folgende Worte:

On the frontside of the Medal is the head of P.GRANT, a Minister of the King of Romania, and the following words are written:

ROMANIA RECUNOSCATOARE

Auf der R?ckseite ist eine Hand die ein Schwert h?lt, die Jahreszahl 1941 und folgende Worte:

IMPOTRIVA COMMUSNISMULUI CRUCIADA

Sehr guter Zustand mit sch?ner Alterspatina.

Do any members have access to the actual III Reich regulations pertaining to the wearing on uniform of Foreign awards and could they post any relavent sections in English for me please.

I will post some pictures, these came from Ebay auctions and from a Romanian Forum WW2.ro

Thanking you for any response, Kevin in Deva

Edited July 26, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Some of the Battle-Bar names for this medal are as follows:

AZOV.

BASARABIA, BUCOVINA, BUG.

CAUCAZ, CALMUCIA, CRIMEEA, CRIMEIA.

DOBROGEA, DONEŢ.

KALMUCEA.

MAREA NEAGRĂ, MARE NEGRU (misspelling ?)

NIPRU, NISTRU.

DNJESTR (for Germans?).

ODESA, ODESSA.

PRUT.

STALINGRAD.

Medals can be found with the reverse to the front even on German bars.

[Kev in Deva]

These photos show what appears to be a German made battle-bars sewn to a Romanian ribbon:

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

These multi bar ribbons went for a high price on Ebay last year, the were being sold from Canada.

But they dont "feel" right to me, and could be add ons to enhance the award, and so far, what the black bar denotes is unknown, also to the rear of this one is a strange piece of medal ribbon that appears to be red with two thin yellow stripes on each side.

The other with a triangular style of ribbon could reflect an award to an Austrian, Hungarian or Bulgarian.

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Some more battlebars and a medal one with what appears to be a number engraved across the front

also a Stalingrad bar that has been drilled in an odd position for fixing to the ribbon.

I am hoping to get some concrete evidence that will be able to dispel the myth here in Romania that all these including the "Swords of Fantasy" are not original and just because somebodys writes up a description and sticks in a picture then it has to be officialy issued in WW".

Kevin in Deva.

[J Temple-West]

Hi Kev,

As requested, I?ve moved the thread here to the correct section.

If memory serves, silver bars were issued should there be multiple bars worn on a ribbon, although multiple bronze bars were often worn due to the lack of knowledge of Rumanian regulations. Trawling through some sites searching for conformation on this, I came across a Rumanian citation to a member of the German forces for the medal and bar for the Crimean campaign (Bottom of the page)

http://axis101.bizland.com/RomanianAwards01.htm

Hope it helps.

[Gordon Craig]

Kev,

Thanks for all the info on this award. I have never seen such a complete explanation of the bars for this medal before. It is very helpful.

Regards,

Gordon

[Carol I]

Thanks for all the info on this award. I have never seen such a complete explanation of the bars for this medal before.

More information on the clasps of the Romanian Crusade against Communism medal can be found on the thread opened almost two years ago on WorldWar2.ro Forum: Clasps of the Crusade Medal.

[Matvey73]

Stalingrad excavations

[Matvey73]

[Matvey73]

[Matvey73]

medal ribbons

[Matvey73]

Stalingrad excavations

[Matvey73]

Stalingrad excavations

[PKeating]

Thank you for this very informative topic, Kevin. Someone posted a Heer Wehrpa? here recently with a battle clasp citation for this medal.

Here it is, in case you missed it. To see the topic, click on this link.

PK

[Carol I]

If memory serves, silver bars were issued should there be multiple bars worn on a ribbon, although multiple bronze bars were often worn due to the lack of knowledge of Rumanian regulations.

The more I read about this, the more it seems that the silver clasps were meant for participation to all the battles in a sector, while the bronze clasps were meant for particpation to some of the battles.

[Carol I]

Stalingrad excavations

I really do hope that there were no human remains with this ID tag or if there were they were given proper burial and ONCE informed. As far as I know, the oval ID tags were supposed to be broken in two when a soldier was put to rest in a temporary grave near the battlefield, one half remaining with the soldier for future identification and the other half being taken as evidence. This tag being intact, suggests a soldier killed far from friendly lines (in territory lost after an attack or even after surrendering).

[Matvey73]

I really do hope that there were no human remains with this ID tag or if there were they were given proper burial and ONCE informed. As far as I know, the oval ID tags were supposed to be broken in two when a soldier was put to rest in a temporary grave near the battlefield, one half remaining with the soldier for future identification and the other half being taken as evidence. This tag being intact, suggests a soldier killed far from friendly lines (in territory lost after an attack or even after surrendering).

There are no bones was not. I not the marauder.

[Carol I]

There are no bones was not. I not the marauder.

I am very glad to hear that Matvey. Nevertheless, I still think that it would be a good idea to let ONCE know about the find. If that is a personal ID badge, maybe they will add the information to a file. There still are tousands of "MIA"-labelled files, while such oval badges continue to appear for sale (sometimes even only halves, thus suggesting grave robbing). Remember that behind each such tag there has been a human being, with a family waiting for him. I will give you only an example, my wife's grandfather. He was a school teacher called under arms as a 2nd lieutenant in the 37th Infantry Regiment. He was wounded at Odessa in 1941 and has received two or three weeks convalescence leave to visit his family (wife, a boy and a girl). Then he left again for the front line and he never came home. He was only 30 (younger than most of the people on this forum), yet we keep referring to him as "grandfather". His children never received any veteran pension from the state as he went missing on the Eastern front (being drafted for service on the Eastern front was considered a crime during the communist regime). The cruel irony is the fact that in his last letter home he tried to encourage his wife by saying that whatever happened to him they will be provided for.

Do not forget what hides behind the acronym "MIA": the uncertainty, the waiting, the endless and most of the time pointless hope. My wife's grandmother had waited for her husband her whole life. "Maybe he will be back tomorrow." "People did come back from prison camps 10-15 years later." "His own brother came back that may years after the war. Why not him?" And so on for more than 40 years. More than they have been together. More than he lived.

[Matvey73]

I am very glad to hear that Matvey. Nevertheless, I still think that it would be a good idea to let ONCE know about the find. If that is a personal ID badge, maybe they will add the information to a file. There still are tousands of "MIA"-labelled files, while such oval badges continue to appear for sale (sometimes even only halves, thus suggesting grave robbing). Remember that behind each such tag there has been a human being, with a family waiting for him. I will give you only an example, my wife's grandfather. He was a school teacher called under arms as a 2nd lieutenant in the 37th Infantry Regiment. He was wounded at Odessa in 1941 and has received two or three weeks convalescence leave to visit his family (wife, a boy and a girl). Then he left again for the front line and he never came home. He was only 30 (younger than most of the people on this forum), yet we keep referring to him as "grandfather". His children never received any veteran pension from the state as he went missing on the Eastern front (being drafted for service on the Eastern front was considered a crime during the communist regime). The cruel irony is the fact that in his last letter home he tried to encourage his wife by saying that whatever happened to him they will be provided for.

Do not forget what hides behind the acronym "MIA": the uncertainty, the waiting, the endless and most of the time pointless hope. My wife's grandmother had waited for her husband her whole life. "Maybe he will be back tomorrow." "People did come back from prison camps 10-15 years later." "His own brother came back that may years after the war. Why not him?" And so on for more than 40 years. More than they have been together. More than he lived.

I regret to you. My English bad. My relatives were lost ALL in Belarus. War is War.

[Matvey73]

The grandfather the Kursk arch

[Matvey73]

Berlin.

[Matvey73]

I did not wish to offend. War, blood, death.....

[Carol I]

I regret to you. My English bad. My relatives were lost ALL in Belarus. War is War.

Sorry to hear that Matvey. Let us hope that there will be no more wars.