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Alan Baird

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    Melrose Scottish Borders

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  1. Many thanks Egorka, every little bit counts. regards, Alan.
  2. There is another site which I have found that is quite interesting and deals with the Navy etc and that is the, ''maritimequest'' site. They certainly appear to have specific knowledge regarding the Yangtze Incident and so I have left a message regarding George Desmond Jonathon Smith. It might be a long shot but for me it is worth checking. regards, Alan.
  3. Hello, Thank you for the suggestions especially the, 'british medal forum,' which seems a particularly good idea. I have been hoping that a collector/researcher/historian that specialised in, 'HMS London,' or the 'Yangtze Incident,' might have relevant ship crew lists within their personal data which would have been easiest and quickest way to identify this possible crew member of HMS London. Since he remained in the same Police Constabulary from 1/11/1949, it might be possible to obtain his Navy serial number from his original Police admission paperwork. One of the main problems with this strategy is that there were several amalgamations of County and provincial police forces over the years which might complicate that line of research. Living in the Scottish Borders is extremely nice but unfortunately it means visiting the National Archives etc is extremely unlikely especially for only one query. I would suspect that no submission for information to the MOD would be accepted without his Navy serial number being attached. Therefore it may be the case that the story is known but it is not possible to factually confirm that story. regards, Alan. PS apologies for any mistakes but I not that great at typing.
  4. Hello, I was wondering if anybody could give me some advice on how to research the following individual from the Royal Navy who served during War War II. The problem is I do not have his service number and so I do not know if it would even be possible to identity him. Hopefully I can get some advice. [a] George Desmond Jonathon Smith. D.O.B. 1928. Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, England. [c] Served in the Royal Navy from 1944 to 1949. [d] Served on HMS London in 1949, during the Yangtze Incident. [e] Released from the Navy and on the 1/11/1949 joined the Police. Without the service number, I have no idea on how to try and verify the information that I have been given. Any help would be much appreciated. I have only ever done one other entry on this excellent site so if I make any mistakes just let me know. regards, Alan. Hi, I forgot to say that I read somewhere that only 1450 Naval General Service medals with the bar ''Yangtzi 1949'' were issued to military personnel so you would think that there would be a readily available official list of those who received the award but I can't seem to find it. regards, Alan.
  5. Thanks for the thumbs up......and your right, a simple thing like understanding and not guessing, what A3 meant, did help a great deal in finishing my research. The Gentleman's Military Interest Club is a very nice and helpful site....so many thanks. It always feel strange when a Metropolitan Policeman who served from the 1920's to 1950's is difficult to research but if you take a Metropolitan Policeman from Victorian times, then you can discover his whole life story ie work, family etc and even complete the research in just a few hours. Alan.
  6. Hi, This is just for general information but it seems there were 2 Inspector Law's serving at New Scotland Yard during this period ie 1940/50's. The other, ' Inspector Law,' was Detective Inspector Percy Law who was in charge of the Photographic Section, part of the CID, at New Scotland Yard. There was a Metropolitan Police recruitment advertisement in the papers in the 1950's which included a photograph of a plain clothes detective photographing a gun to highlight and record the fingerprints on the pistol. The same picture is on one of the, 'Boy's Annual books,' of that period and that picture is of Percy Law. Obviously, there would have been a great many people working in New Scotland Yard but who knows, they may have even known each other and I suppose there must have been quite a few famous characters/detectives that were around during this period ie Fabian etc. Alan.
  7. Hi Nick, Many thanks and it all makes sense now because when you think of it..... he was a station sergeant from 1937 to 1940 and station sergeants were responsible for the overall administration of the station. Station sergeants had 4 chevrons, instead of the 3 chevrons identifying a normal sergeant. Although, I cannot remember when the 4 chevrons were dispensed with as a rank marking. I should have also guessed that the letter 'A' may have been used to indicate administration. Anyway he spent 15 years in the administration the Metropolitan Police and there would have been hundreds of civilian staff involved in supporting these uniformed staff. I really do appreciate this information and now I know what he was actually doing at Scotland Yard. Alan.
  8. This is just an observation but it always seems funny how it can be so difficult to locate more recent information ie A3 department at Scotland Yard in the 1940's and 1950's and yet when you go back much further, say 130 or 160 years etc, then there can be a mass of information at your fingertips i.e.................... Inspector Charles James John Law's grandfather was :- Inspector John Law, Metropolitan Police. Born 14/8/1840, Devonshire. Joined the Metropolitan Police 21/4/1862. PC [H205/collar number] in 'H' or Whitechapel division. Retired on pension 4/10/1887, Inspector with 'B' or Chelsea [Westminster] division. John Law was over 5 feet and 9 inches tall. Dark hair, Hazel eyes. Fresh complexion. Scar on right wrist. 47 years old. [ in 1887]. Maybe this fact, encouraged his grandson, to also join the Metropolitan Police. Alan.
  9. Hi Mike, Many thanks for keeping me on the right track and thanks to the moderators for moving the post for me. Alan.
  10. Alan

    As Mike suggested, I have moved your Scotland Yard query to the Police section of the GMIC, wher it is more likely to attract the attention of the police experts among us.  Good luck with your query!

    Peter Monahan

    1. Alan Baird

      Alan Baird


             Many thanks, I appreciated the help.


    2. peter monahan

      peter monahan

      No problem.  It's often a puzzle as to where to park stuff for best viewing.  I hope this helps pull the expert opinions out of the woodwork!


  11. Hi, I just thought I would add some more details on Inspector Charles J. J. Law, in case, it might help in identifying what is the A3 department in Scotland Yard in 1940 or assist in providing any other information on him. Charles James John Law, born Marylebone, in London, on the 25/6/1902. Served in the Army between 1921 to 1925. [don't know the actual military details] Joined the Metropolitan Police in 1925, assigned to 'J' or Bethnal Green division. Promoted to sergeant and transferred to 'C' or St James's division in 1931. Promoted to station sergeant and transferred to 'P' or Camberwell division in1937. Promoted to Inspector and transferred to A3 department at Scotland Yard in 1940. Retired in 1955, Inspector at Scotland Yard. [I think he was still an Inspector.] Died on 30/4/1993. My impression would be that A3 is likely to be a sub-group/section with the main department ie C.I.D. department and A3 could be fingerprint section etc but I just do not know. regards, Alan.
  12. Hi, I was hoping somebody might be able to assist me with some information on Scotland Yard during the 1940's and 1950's period. I am researching an Inspector Charles James John Law who was promoted to Inspector in 1940 and transferred to the A3 department at Scotland Yard and he remain there until he retired in 1955. This might seem a bit daft but I cannot identify what department A3 refers to....... would that be the fingerprints or photography department or does it refer to the division or something else. Any help would be much appreciated and I hope I have done this entry properly, as it is now only my second posting on the forum. many thank. Alan.
  13. Hi, I totally agree with you that during the height of the JTR murders, there would have probably been hundreds of suspects taken to the Police Stations each week. The majority of these would have been cleared and released quite quickly but you would think that there would be a mass of information relating to these incidents and the Police Officers involved but that is not the case. Ebay has its advantages but it also has many disadvantages, prices go from good to outrageous. Often there are better deals to be had by going directly to dealers shops and auctions etc. H or Whitechapel division medals relating to 1888 are extremely difficult to find but it can also be rewarding collecting from another famous period in H or Whitechapel division history. For example the ''Siege of Sidney Street in 1911.'' That whole period of the Tottingham Outrage and Sidney Street shows great courage by the officers that dealt with the incidents. There is greater scope in finding interesting items, as these are less well known incidents nowadays. Alan.
  14. Hello, This is my first posting on the club forum. I also watched the auction of PC W Saundery's medals and did some basic research on him. William Henry Saundery - dark hair, grey eyes, a fresh complexion, five feet ten and a half inches tall and had a slightly deformed left hand. PC H471 William Saundery was 1 of only 42 Police Constables that were permanently transferred to H or Whitechapel division during the infamous Jack the Ripper murders. That is 42 out of a total of 11,000-12,000 Police personnel. It should be remembered that the majority of the Police Officers serving with H division, during this specific period, have not been identified. All good stories should be evidenced and that is done by Police Order 31/10/1888. PC H471 William Saundery served with H division until the 7th of February in 1890 which was also an interesting period because you have various murder scares where it was feared JTR had returned. 8/2/1890 joined A Whitehall division. 26/8/1890 joined E or Holborn division. 27/12/1893 joined Y Highgate division. Retired from the Met. and Y division on the 4/3/1912 and all evidenced by his Met. Police pension records etc. Saundery is an unusual surname and there is also a good deal of information on his family life. PC H471 William Saundery's story and medals are extremely interesting and have the potential for researching in many ways. In many years of collecting I have never seen any of these particular Police Constables medals come onto the market and I suspect it will be many years again before we see a similar event. One last thought - this particular sale was accidentally done very badly, the listing title of the auction gave the wrong Police officers details and this error may have even resulted in many collectors missing the importance of these medals and also the start of the Summer holidays is never a good time to sell. The market value is what collectors and dealers are willing to pay and whenever you have a good story, then you are likely to be able to command a good price. Well that is my opinion and I thought I would share it with you all.