Chris Boonzaier

This is interesting... Great Britain has recently finished paying off her WW2 debt.... but her WW1 debt remains..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm 225 Billion of it...... Maybe she should invade poland... :-)

I would like to take this thought back a step.... In 1871 the Germans imposed reperations on the French and took Alsace-Lorraine ... Could we then claim that France was motivated by this German action and it could be seen as the cause for WW1 ? :-)

I really hesitate to bring this following argument, and I hope it is not taken wrong, but I fail to see the difference between that thought and the argument "By fighting terrorism we are only encouraging them to attack us.." Should Iraq have been rebuilt after Desert Storm to prevent them from becoming baddies again? Has anything been done to sooth Serbias pride after the NAQTO bombings (Personally I dont think the Balkans problem has been "solved" for ever) Look, I agree that Germany went into the post war period with terrible preconditions for a happy late 1930s to 1940s, but so did everyone who took part in the war. Everyone had back breaking debt, everyone had lost many men, everyone was headed for the great depression, some (unlike Germany) had had their land devestated... Germany had on top of that bruised pride, but tough titty, not everyone can win... Even Harry Potter could not have created the conditions for a peaceful Germany after WW1. But another thought... since when has it been the task of the victor to rebuild and appease the Looser?

But what would a magnanimous peace have been? Lets not forget, Wilsons 14 points, which is often held up as the "lost chance" ALSO had all the things that riled up the Germans between the wars. Everyone makes fun of Neville Chamberlin for his appeasement of Germany... and many of the same people then say Germany should have been appeased at Versailles to avoid a next war. The more often I read the 14 points, the less I understand how it could have been thought of as an alternative... and another thought... Germany was in near revolution in 1918... Communist forces, Nationalist forces, Feeble democratic forces.... they were the disruptive currents flowing through the whole of Europe... with these forces in motion, and even with 90 years of hindsight... I fail to see what could have been an "acceptable " peace. best Chris

No, no! Dont be sorry. I dont see this as an argument in any way, but as a discussion. I would really appretiate it if you posted that other thought in the "who started it" thread. IMHO we all read tons of book, but it is only when you discuss and debate what you read and think that it all kinda settles and you can begin to form an opinion. Back to the original point... I just dont think there was a magic switch between 1917-18 that made the Kaiser a sudden non entity.... Peace after 1918 would never have been possible with a kaiser, he no longer had the support of the people. I wager, even if the war had stopped in 1917... he would not have remained long. The only hope for Germany post WW1 would have been a democracy. However, a democracy wont work in a rotten state. Loss of pride, loss of land, debt, political turmoil... As I posted before, Europe was ripe for totalitarian states... and 3 others managed it WITHOUT having the allies to blame. We can also talk about the financial ruin in Germany in the late 20s... but lets keep it in perspective... From Wikipedia... "The Great Depression had devastating effects in virtually every country, rich and poor. Personal income, tax revenue, profits and prices dropped. while international trade plunged by ½ to ⅔. Unemployment in the U.S. rose to 25%, and in some countries rose as high as 33%.[3] Cities all around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on heavy industry. Construction was virtually halted in many countries. Farming and rural areas suffered as crop prices fell by approximately 60%.[4][5][6] Facing plummeting demand with few alternate sources of jobs, areas dependent on primary sector industries such as cash cropping, mining and logging suffered the most" Your forefathers in the USA went through it as well, without having a victory imposed on them by the allies.... ;-) P.S. The decline of the Monarchy could arguably have been the result of the war, but not the peace.

Hi, A point I would love to argue, but best tossed into "WW1, who started it?" thread. Best Chris

Hi, there is also a tiny political party in Germany called "the beer Party"... which is the one I would vote for if I could... Realistically, once the Kaiser had fled, the people in Germany who gave a damn was veeeeery, vereeeery small. It is sure none of the major forces struggling for power would have kept him as their head... best Chris

I want to leave the origins of WW1 to the appropriate thread, otherwise we will bog down... but let me float the folling thought... An army cannot wage war without the population behind them... A Population like Germany, pride and ego bruised because they loose the war, but not having suffered (in the respect that their houses, possesions, factories and jobs are destroyed) would be willing to go to war again to restore pride. A population like Germany in 1945 had suffered. Cities destroyed, houses bombed, etc. etc.... and 50 years later they are still shocked and hate the thought of war. If the german population by 1918 had suffered as much as the people in Belgium and northern France... we would not have had a WW2...

History? Simple math says you could not have a WW2 without having had a WW1... yeeeesh! :-)

I prefer saying "boobies"... its my feel good mantra.... :-)

You MUST.. otherwise my argument fails! Just kidding, I just want to argue the point that the "If Wilsons 14 points..." and "if Germany had not been faced with crippling debt" are for me fehl am Platz. Wilsons 14 points had all the gripes the nationalists were against, and huge debt was not unique to Germany... Anyone know when Britain paid off her last war debt? was not too long ago.....

It pays to carefully read Wilsons 14 points.... If Wilsons Points HAD been adopted, things would still have been very much the same.... All the gripes the nationalists had would still have been there... from the Danzig corridor to the French getting back Alsace - Lorraine.... Wilsons points are often held up as the solution... but all the grievances from loss of land to reduction of the army are still in their.... As to the reparations..... Germany suffered NOT AT ALL in the war, other than her war dead. Read my post above.... parts of Belgium and France were obliterated.... is it realistic to expect them to pay for the damage themselves? Belgium had guaranteed neutrality for Buddahs sake... the attack on Belgium in 1914 makes Pearl Harbor look honorable.... ! There is noone who can blame ANYONE other than Germany for the "rape of Belgium". Think about it for a second... devastation of a neutral country... should it have stayed unpunished after the war? France and Belgium in crippling debt because the war was fought on their territory... and you want Germany not to land in debt by having to pay her share? Not fair amigo!!!!!!

I agree but for a totally different reason... Germany came through WW1 Unscathed... it lost troops.. be we all know a nation at war can happily ignore that as long as the folks at home dont suffer.... France, Belgium, Russia suffered intensely, not ONLY by loosing soldiers, but by their COUNTRY suffering. US Brigadier General Robert A. Doughty quotes Andre Tardieu in 1922..... "The war bled us terribly. Out of our population of less than 38 000 000 there were mobilised 8 500 000. 5 300 000 of them were killed or wounded (1 500 000 killed, 800 000 Mutilated, 3 000 000 wounded), not counting 500 000 men who have come back from german prisons in very bad physical conditions. Almost 4 000 000 hectares of land were devastated, together with 4 000 towns and villages, 600 000 buildings were destroyed, among them 20 000 factories and workshops. 5 000 km of railroads and 53 000 KM of roads. About 1 400 000 head of cattle were carried off. Altogether a quarter of our productive capital was annihilated. The financial consequences of the annihilation of all these resources bear down on us heavily today. The war cost us 150 Billion Francs. The damage to property and persons comes to 200 Billion. Our ordinary budget has increased from 4.5 Billion to 25 Billion. Our debt from 35 Billion to 330 Billion. To measure what we have undergone, suppose that the war had taken place in America, and that you had suffered proportionately. You would have had 4 000 000 of your men killed and 10 000 000 wounded.. All your industries from Washington to Pittsburgh would have ceased to exist. All your coal mines would have been ruined. That is what the war would have meant to you. That is what it has meant to us" THIS is what makes nations weary of war... not sending their soldiers of to die in another country. Bob Lemke posted on the great war forum some time ago about how the Germans suffered in 1918 during the opening phases of the occupation... Black French colonial troops digging crap holes on the lawns of a fine hotel in Baden-Baden!!!!!! For Chrst sake! That represents the homeland suffering?????? When I speak to Germans none of them says "we dont like war because it is bad and the allies rebuilt us after the war."... when I speak to the wifes Grandmothers generation... what taught them to not want another war was the Allies bringing it home to them... Bombers, Troops fighting through to the Elbe... cities in ashes... Its things like that that taught the French and Belgians to be weary of war in 1918... and the Germans in 1945.....

And Rascism is just a by product of the national socialist beast... Lets imagine Hitler was not a racist, lets imagine he was a Jewish German... but that all his OTHER ideals and goals remained the same, Take back parts of France, the Danzig corridor, get land in the east, etc. etc. etc... You would have had WW2 minus the holocaust, and it would have been bad enough... Germany were plain and simply bad losers after WW1... there is nothing they would have been happy with. Fascist dictators are NOT a by-product of being beaten by the allies... Italy got one in 1922... Russia became totalitarian in 1918... it was par for the course for angry disenchanted populations... is there any reason to think that Germany would be less susceptible than Italy or Russia or Spain ? What can we blame THEIR totalitarian regimes on? With Russia, Italy or Spain we blame it on the population... but in germany on the allies?

I think this argument overlooks a very, very big point.... Willy did not leave Germany with the allies hot on his heels.... his armies were collapsing, units were rebelling... and he did not even trust his soldiers to protect him in his flight... they had to specially task Sturm Bataillon Rohr to do it... ans apparently even there they were not to keen to cover the kaisers butt. Then, when the Extreme left and extreme right parties were spilling blood and scrambling for power... do you find any mention AT ALL of a German Royalist Party wanting the Kaiser back? Anywhere between 1918 and 1933, was there anyone in germany who seriously wanted him back? BEFORE the Kaiser fled, all of his sons made it clear that not one of them was willing to take his place on the throne.... So... I put forward the thought,that even if the allies were to have wanted the kaiser, the germans would not have wanted him... there was a simmering revolution, and neither party was rooting for the kaiser....

Here is a nice shot of a serious looking Bavarian...

Hi, I will keep an eye open for the book, but must say, it is dangerous to form an opinion about the man based on one author, when so many actions and words are to the contrary. it must be pointed out, Willy fled the country because he thought his own people were going to kick his butt. What exactly was the earlier solution the Kaiser wanted? I cant remember any realistic peace offerings off hand. Will get back to this when I get home tonight. Best Chris

Will do :cheers:

Well... "Canada started it" is your entry into the discussion...??? I think you going to loose!

I think they are simply things that were availible in huuuuge amounts after the war, and are basically all the same... so unlike things with "variation collectors", most collectors need just one... Its the same for the signals badge, pfc pip etc. etc..... There are more on the market than there are collectors who need them. Best Chris

I was issued a French army coupe coupe in Central Africa in the early 90s. It was longer and not as good a quality as these old ones. Nowdays I assume the army takes things like this from the cheapest bidder. Best Chris

P.S. things like a "serpe" are probably in service for decades as well as you cannot break them. We even had the odd WW2 German Jerrycan.

I dont think it is a question of issuing WW1 equipment in Indo china. it is more a question of issuing equipment that works over a long period of time. As something like a coupe coupe has not changed in hundreds of years, I am sure they would have been issued until they broke or got lost. I remember having a 1944 stamped entrenching tool in 1990. best Chris

It is oh so comman to blame the rise of the Nazi's and WW2 on the allied leaders of WW1... I think that is B.S. German nationalism was not created AFTER WW1... it was extremely strong BEFORE WW1... and simply continued after WW1. IMHO the allies did not create manic nationalism in Germany, they simply failed to destroy it in 1918. So... shoot me down.... :whistle:

IMHO... It was Austrias fault and Germany egged her on. Picture the scene... Franz Joseph was like a country yokel who grew up on the farm... and then met up with Willy, who was head of a biker gang.... F.J. and Willy land up in a Hells Angels bar and FJ sees a topless Girl next to a small Hells Angel. F.J. thinks to himself, its just a small guy... I can take him.. and says to Willy "Hey, I never seen boobies before, I would like to cop a feel". Willöy is a whole lot smarter... he sees there are 15 other Hells angels in the room... but he knows he has 15 of his own bikers in the car park. Instead of telling F.J. "Boy! You grab them titties... and blood will flow".... he says "Yeah! Grab em! Nuzzle em! anything happens... we got you covered!".... So, due to F.J. s stupidity, and Willy's desire to be the big man... WW1 starts.... ..and I know you all want to proove me wrong!