Mondvor

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I decided to examine the great seal more carefully and found interesting thing. It has a snowflake instead of a star. I thought that only early (pre-war) orderbooks had a star. Then I checked my files to find post-war documents bearind a picture with a great seal of Supreme Soviet. I surprised that I found only few of them, mostly to well-known people. By most important finding was that they all had a star, not a snowflake. Please, take a look at the images below. They covered the time from 1954 (well-known military aircraft designer Lavochkin) to 1981 (nuclear submarine commander HSU Abbasov). Among them also famous piano player Richter and a legend of a coal-mine industry Stahanov. Is that possible that for cadet Burdin Supreme Soviet of the USSR made an exception and used a seal with a snowflake? Another explanation is possible. Picture is real, but seal is fake.

To Riley 1965: Do you know if this picture was taken during his active duty or after he was transferred into reserve?

Dave, I respect your opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. But still I do not understand why 1) cadet received his MM medal in Kremlin (it was outstanding event for such a small person on a bottom of the ladder). 2) he is not wearing uniform on the picture. For all military people in Soviet times it was mandatory to appear in a uniform on official ID pictures (except maybe secret KGB officers working undercover). You mentioned "well known dealer" that you bought this medal from. But he might be not the first link in the chain of dealers this medal traveled through. Anyway, please let me know if you find his picture in his personal file. I'm just curious

Christian, in my early post I said "it might be". It was my assumption about how soldiers might feel towards the value of Red Star vs Glory. In my late post I expressed my own opinion. If I was a soldier in 1945 and my commander gave me a choise of either Red Star or Glory, I would choose Red Star. Since I'm not an officer, but just a private (or sergeant), so everyone who will see Red Star on my soldier's uniform would understant that this is NOT long-service award, but real combat order. I think that we are wasting time here. There is no "universal" solution for this problem. Some soldiers considered Red Star higher than Glory, some thought in a different way. That was very personal and varied from one man to another. I don't want to discuss it furthermore, because there is no clear answer. About the payments - they started in according with "Postanovlenie (Ukaz) of Central Executive Commetee" from May 7, 1936. Those payments were canceled in according with Ukaz of Supreme Soviet Presidium from September 10, 1947 (Effective date starts from January 1, 1948). For Lenin it was 25 roubles per month, Red Banner and GPW 1st class - 20, Red Banner of Labor, Red Star and GPW 2nd class - 15, Badge of Honor - 10, For Valor, Ushakov and Valiant Labor medals - 10, Military Merit, Nahimov and Distinguished Labor medals - 5.

Oh, sure it would be possible to match the photo from the book with the photo from personal file. Also I think that the guy on the picture looks older than 20

Just found this topic. I think that picture and the seal have nothing to do with the document. In my opinion they were added later, most likely by German dealer. First of all, military person would not appear on ID picture in a civil clothes. He should be in uniform. Secondly, it is a little chance that he was awarded with this medal in Kremlin. Also most of the documents during this time were issued without any pictures. Finally, my good friend from Germany told me funny story. Some German beginner collectors refused to buy documents if they are without photograph. They said like "there is a special area for the picture, so it should be there". Well, Germans strictly follow the rules, but Russians do not So German dealers just added fake pictures and seals to many original documents to satisfy unexperienced collectors. I have more examples of those things, if you want I can display them.

Christian, of course I deeply respect your opinion, but still believe that Red Star was more valuable for a soldiers than Glory. Even though Red Star lost many points after November 1944 Ukaz, it still remained mostly "officer" award. Of course thousands of privates and NSOs awarded with Red Star during GPW, but it was a small percent comparing to the number of officers awarded with it. Most soldiers finished the war with medals only, less were decorated with Glory and much less were decorated with Red Star. If we go further, the next award in "rarity" rating would be GPW 2nd class followed by 1st class. So for many soldiers the fact of receiving kind of "officer" award was a big event. Glory... Well, of course nowadays it is highly respected award surrouded with heroic spirit. But this legend of "most respected" award was built constantly after the war. First of all, the privileges for full-cavaliers of Glory were established many years after the war ended. And those booklets for full cavaliers appeared the same time. In 1945 there was no outstanding privileges for them. By the way, same set of benefits provided for Labor Glory cavaliers, but I don't think that Labor Glory 3rd class has more value than Red Banner of Labor or Badge of Honor. Also we don't have to mix SINGLE order of Glory with FULL SET of Glory. I believe that original question was about single 3rd class versus Red Star, right? Of course set of three Glories would easily outweight Red Star. About detailed description of merits (same as for GPW) I have my own opinion. I think that was made to divide soldiers from officers in their awards. For example a soldier shot down enemy plane using his personal weapon. He can be awarded with GPW 2nd class, right? It has this merit in the list. But ironically same thing mentioned in Glory list. So the soldier most likely would get Glory and the officer for the same event would get GPW. Stalin invented order of Glory to make a gap between soldiers and officers. I don't know if there was an award "for soldiers only" in German army or US Army.

And for the Glory given to Il-2 attack plane gunner who personally shot down two German fighters you probably give USD 300, right? So many people pay not for the medal itself, but for the nice story behind it.

Krasnokamsk Mint was located near Ural mountains in the Perm oblast. So it is near the junction of Europe and Asia. On late 1941 Moscov Mint evacuated deep into Soviet territory and reestablished as a Krasnokamsk Mint. It provided 90 percent of all war time awards - Red Banners, Red Stars, all "polkovodets" awards including Nevsky, major part of GPWs, Glories and other... About hierarchy it is hard question. I think that "long-service awards" regulations dramatically changed the values of Red Banner and Red Star. So in 1945 it might be that Glory had bigger value than Red Star and Suvorov was more "cool" than Red Banner. But in my opinion before November 1944 situation was different. Red Star was more desirable award for soldiers than Glory and Red Banner was more desirable for officers than Suvorov 3rd class. Just my opinion...

You are absolutely right. All Type 2 Nevsky orders are converted from Type 1 by Krasnokamsk Mint. However, many Type 1 orders have been sent to Fronts and Armies and they were not withdrawn for a convertion. So they were issued in their original shape after July 1943 even though they were not matched with existing regulations.

Well, I think we should believe this information because those guys from www.soldat.ru are very good in everything connected with military units, formations and commanders of those units. So we can assume that he was a division commander. About the Type 1 Nevsky - I've seen the cases when this early type was awarded in 1945. For example comrade Volkov was awarded with Nevsky 1532 by the Commander of Artillery of 6th Guards Tank Army on January 31, 1945. And I know two more cases.

Simon, thanks for the links to information about Bojchuk. The only question is when he was awarded with his Nevsky? From the article it is clear that he was a division commander on January 1944. But it could be possible that he earned his Nevsky prior to this date when he was holding different position. By the way, 7th AA artillery division later was transferred from 42nd Army and at the end of November it was in 8th Army. About Vladimirov it is 100% correct. He was both General and Division commander at the time of Ukaz. It was one of the first awards of Nevsky (the very first took place few months earlier - in November 1942). So maybe the system of hierarchy was still "under construction". The first Suvorov award took place at the end of December 1942, just two months before Vladimirov got his Nevsky. I mean that all those "polkovodets" awards were pretty new for everyone at the beginning of 1943. Web site dedicated to Nevsky recipients is a really good one. I personally know his owner - Alexander Luchkin and have provided him with all information about two of my Nevsky groups. Also I have sent him all pictures of Nevsky recipients that I had in my collection. If anyone wants to place his researched Nevsky cavalier to this web site just let me know. If you have only English translation of cavalier's papers it is OK, I can translate them back to Russian and send to Alexander. If you have Russian citations, award cards, etc - you can just directly send it to him. He would really appreciate international cooperation on his project

Hi Simon, Thanks for the picture of general Bojchuk. Do you have any papers (like citation or award card) with the numbers of his awards and dates of issues?

Second page.

Christian, despite the fact that two classes of "crab" are not common, it does not mean that such event is impossible. Here is a sample of a book I believe to be real. And I have two more examples.

Gerd, thanks for advertising my website But the address is slightly different - http://mondvor.narod.ru It is VERY slow, and in Russian, but pictures and serial number ranges should be understandable to anyone...

And more...

Gerd, this RB has never had original serial number. It was made as a fake from the beginning. I've seen many of those with a same style fake mintmark. Some pictures...

This Red Banner is a fake.

Simon, in case of Shtemenko's Suvorov Stalin personally downgraded the citation from 1st to 2nd class. This episode described in details in Shtemenko's memoir book "General Staff in the years of war". When Shtemenko was sent to Krimea peninsula to coordinate landing operation of the troops of Primorsk Army he found himself in the middle of debates between General Petrov (commander of Primorsk Army) and Admiral Vladimirsky (Commander of Black Sea Fleet). The debates were about the issue of who would provide the main supply transportation for Primorsk Army - Fleet or Ground Troops. At the end they created some sort of agreement and developed a protocol. Protocol was signed by ten people (including Petrov, Vladimirsky, Shtemenko and Voroshilov) and sent to Moscow. When Stalin received this document he went nuts. By his early order all military papers delivered to him should be signed by two people - Commander of operation and Chief of Staff. In most important cases he allows to use three signatures (two described above plus Member of Military Council). In this case he found 10 signatures. He said to General Antonov - "It looks like a collective-farm document. Are they established a voting process on this meeting?"... Later he remembered this episode and said that he will forgive Voroshilov because of his luck of staff work experience. But for Shtemenko he downgraded his Suvorov...

To switch the discussion to peaceful rails I just added one group to the "Research" section of the forum. There is a Nevsky in this group that was given not to Division Commander, but to Assistant Division Commander

Reverse.