Mondvor

There are two moments that could be interesting about this document. First - for most 2nd class Glories the new orderbook was issued. I've seen several orderbooks where 2nd class was added to previously issued 3rd class orderbook, but those count only about 10 percent from separated orderbook cases. Second - on the picture it seems that words in the order name are not well aligned. Maybe it is just because of a bad quality of picture, hard to say for sure. If better picture is available I can compare the individual style of each letter with original seals.

Hi Christian, Here is a page from official book about awards regulations. You can see that you were right about the Glory orders. Also at the bottom it says that there is no money payments for "polkovodets" awards.

I'm sorry, I didn't get this passage at all. Maybe because of my non-perfect English

Interesting. I spent some time looking for images of real Great Seals of Supreme Soviet Presidium, then I posted them to the forum to demonstrate that they are different from Burdin seal. No one gave any comments to that. Why? No one is interested to look for a truth? Doc wrote "I know that Neither of them are going to buy or sell a fake!!!". Did I say that the book is fake? No, I did not. I said that picture and a seal might not belong to this group. It is my opinion and I gave very clear examples why I think so. We all have to realize that it is impossible to be 100% sure that the item you have in your collection is not fake. Some people just unaware of it. Even big experts like Paul Mc Daniel could make mistakes, because some fakes are highly detailed professional pieces of art. Dave wrote "I still have yet to hear anyone's reasoning as to how someone who got a book without photo would just HAPPEN to guess that it belonged to someone the right age and demenor (and quite possibly physical build) as the actual recipient, when the award could have been awarded to anyone. Luck perhaps?" I think you should not be Sherlok Holmes to make "educated guess" about the recipient. First of all it is a man, not a woman. Secondly it should be a person not elder than 30. Who else can get MM in 1967? It is a chance that it's an award from WW II that finally found the recipient. But in this case the actual number of Prikaz of the unit and it's date should be written in the book. So most likely it is some young person from Red Army at the age of 18 - 30. This picture shows a guy that is about 22 - 25. Not a big deal to guess. I'm really sorry that I started this discussion. Please let me know if you find Burdin's image from a personal file. I would be happy to confess that I'm wrong. BTW, in some of my previous posts I mentioned that the picture could be real. but the seal is fake. Noone payed attention, however With respect to everyone, Andrew.

Doc, I would not judge about groups that you mentioned, because I didn't see them. I'm talking only about this one MM group right now. To agree with me or not it is up to you. But many collectors have some kind of "denial syndrom". They don't want to believe that they have fakes. I gave several arguments, I illustrated them with examples. And you just say that "I disagree with your opinion" because "I have 100% confidence in my groups documents including Service record picture and feel the same about Ed's group". It really sounds strange to me.

I was distracted by your word "another". If we talk about this very group, why do you call it another? Were is the second one in this case? In my early post I said that in my opinion medal and orderbook are original. The only fake elements that were added later are picture and the seal. Also I explained the reason why they might be added to original group.

Lavochkin's 54 is his Hero of Socialist Labor medal. Picture taken in a museum through the glass, sorry for the reflection

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Sure Gerd, here they are...

Sorry Ed, what group do you mean?

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I decided to examine the great seal more carefully and found interesting thing. It has a snowflake instead of a star. I thought that only early (pre-war) orderbooks had a star. Then I checked my files to find post-war documents bearind a picture with a great seal of Supreme Soviet. I surprised that I found only few of them, mostly to well-known people. By most important finding was that they all had a star, not a snowflake. Please, take a look at the images below. They covered the time from 1954 (well-known military aircraft designer Lavochkin) to 1981 (nuclear submarine commander HSU Abbasov). Among them also famous piano player Richter and a legend of a coal-mine industry Stahanov. Is that possible that for cadet Burdin Supreme Soviet of the USSR made an exception and used a seal with a snowflake? Another explanation is possible. Picture is real, but seal is fake.

To Riley 1965: Do you know if this picture was taken during his active duty or after he was transferred into reserve?

Dave, I respect your opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. But still I do not understand why 1) cadet received his MM medal in Kremlin (it was outstanding event for such a small person on a bottom of the ladder). 2) he is not wearing uniform on the picture. For all military people in Soviet times it was mandatory to appear in a uniform on official ID pictures (except maybe secret KGB officers working undercover). You mentioned "well known dealer" that you bought this medal from. But he might be not the first link in the chain of dealers this medal traveled through. Anyway, please let me know if you find his picture in his personal file. I'm just curious

Christian, in my early post I said "it might be". It was my assumption about how soldiers might feel towards the value of Red Star vs Glory. In my late post I expressed my own opinion. If I was a soldier in 1945 and my commander gave me a choise of either Red Star or Glory, I would choose Red Star. Since I'm not an officer, but just a private (or sergeant), so everyone who will see Red Star on my soldier's uniform would understant that this is NOT long-service award, but real combat order. I think that we are wasting time here. There is no "universal" solution for this problem. Some soldiers considered Red Star higher than Glory, some thought in a different way. That was very personal and varied from one man to another. I don't want to discuss it furthermore, because there is no clear answer. About the payments - they started in according with "Postanovlenie (Ukaz) of Central Executive Commetee" from May 7, 1936. Those payments were canceled in according with Ukaz of Supreme Soviet Presidium from September 10, 1947 (Effective date starts from January 1, 1948). For Lenin it was 25 roubles per month, Red Banner and GPW 1st class - 20, Red Banner of Labor, Red Star and GPW 2nd class - 15, Badge of Honor - 10, For Valor, Ushakov and Valiant Labor medals - 10, Military Merit, Nahimov and Distinguished Labor medals - 5.

Oh, sure it would be possible to match the photo from the book with the photo from personal file. Also I think that the guy on the picture looks older than 20

Just found this topic. I think that picture and the seal have nothing to do with the document. In my opinion they were added later, most likely by German dealer. First of all, military person would not appear on ID picture in a civil clothes. He should be in uniform. Secondly, it is a little chance that he was awarded with this medal in Kremlin. Also most of the documents during this time were issued without any pictures. Finally, my good friend from Germany told me funny story. Some German beginner collectors refused to buy documents if they are without photograph. They said like "there is a special area for the picture, so it should be there". Well, Germans strictly follow the rules, but Russians do not So German dealers just added fake pictures and seals to many original documents to satisfy unexperienced collectors. I have more examples of those things, if you want I can display them.

Christian, of course I deeply respect your opinion, but still believe that Red Star was more valuable for a soldiers than Glory. Even though Red Star lost many points after November 1944 Ukaz, it still remained mostly "officer" award. Of course thousands of privates and NSOs awarded with Red Star during GPW, but it was a small percent comparing to the number of officers awarded with it. Most soldiers finished the war with medals only, less were decorated with Glory and much less were decorated with Red Star. If we go further, the next award in "rarity" rating would be GPW 2nd class followed by 1st class. So for many soldiers the fact of receiving kind of "officer" award was a big event. Glory... Well, of course nowadays it is highly respected award surrouded with heroic spirit. But this legend of "most respected" award was built constantly after the war. First of all, the privileges for full-cavaliers of Glory were established many years after the war ended. And those booklets for full cavaliers appeared the same time. In 1945 there was no outstanding privileges for them. By the way, same set of benefits provided for Labor Glory cavaliers, but I don't think that Labor Glory 3rd class has more value than Red Banner of Labor or Badge of Honor. Also we don't have to mix SINGLE order of Glory with FULL SET of Glory. I believe that original question was about single 3rd class versus Red Star, right? Of course set of three Glories would easily outweight Red Star. About detailed description of merits (same as for GPW) I have my own opinion. I think that was made to divide soldiers from officers in their awards. For example a soldier shot down enemy plane using his personal weapon. He can be awarded with GPW 2nd class, right? It has this merit in the list. But ironically same thing mentioned in Glory list. So the soldier most likely would get Glory and the officer for the same event would get GPW. Stalin invented order of Glory to make a gap between soldiers and officers. I don't know if there was an award "for soldiers only" in German army or US Army.