pieter1012

Nick, a beautiful and very rare order of St Andrew, but I still like this order better as it originally is, without the diamonds. Anyway, I think it is one of the most beautiful orders in the world. Pieter

Interesting the painting of admiral Yamamoto Isoroku, it is the first time I see it. The painter took some liberties as admiral Yamamoto was awarded pothumously in 1943 the Grand Cordon of the order of the Chrysanthemum and the first class of the Golden Kite. In the painting Yamamoto has also the breaststar of the second class Golden Kite, but as far as my information goes, he was never awarded the second class. Pieter

Dieter, the outside of the case looks indeed exactly the same as for the Constitution Promulgation medal. Differences are that the Crown Prince Korean voyage case is larger and the inside is red instead of white. Pieter

Giichi Tanaka became Baron in 1920 and is therefore not listed in the Peerage of Japan book of 1912. Unfortunately, there are no later publications of this Peerage book. When he was in St. Petersburg in 1898 to study the Russian army, he was still of junior rank and unlikely to receive a grandcross. General Tanaka probably received most of his foreign orders when he was Prime Minister from April1927 till July 1929, as he was then concurrently the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Pieter

Bokassa might beat Tokudaiji in numbers, but most of Bokassa's grandcross stars were of his own creation, whereas marquis Tokudaiji was recepient of many prestigious European orders such as the White Eagle of Russia, the Red Eagle of Prussia, Iron Crown of Austria, St. Maurice & St. Lazarus of Italy, Legion 'D Honneur of France,Royal Victorian Order of the United Kingdom, as well as some high orders from Asia such as the First Grade of the Double Dragon of China, The White Elephant of Siam, the order of the Plum Blossems of Korea and of course the order of the Chrysanthemum of Japan.

Hi Nick and Dieter, Both the lapel rosettes for my Sacred Treasure (1983) and Rising Sun (1992) came with the big old style lapel rosette. These were provided loose in the presentation case, so not seperately boxed. When the change to the pinstyle occurred, I don't know. At one point they have also become much smaller, more in line with the current rosettes for European orders. I have been to a presentation ceremony of the Rising Sun at the Japanese Embassy here in 2006 and the lapel rosette was the new small pinstyle version. But I think the change occurred earlier. The replacement rosettes come indeed in small white carton boxes. I ordered a replacement rosette (old style) for my Rising Sun, as a spare just in case I would misplace the one I received with the order, and this came in such a box. Pieter

Further to the earlier remark of Dieter on the rivets present on the Sacred Treasure of Bramstedt awarded in 1963, I have in my collection a First Class of the Sacred Treasure that was awarded to a Japanese in April 1966. It has four rivets, just like the one on Bramstedt's order; on the sashbadge as well as on the star. I looked carefully, but found no hallmarks on both items. Pieter

Dieter, I never looked at the suspension knob, but indeed at the backside it has the capital letters DE. The trouble with these awards( contrary to the old days) is that after it was presented to me by the Japanese ambassador, it disappearsed in the cupboard because there is no occasion to wear it. I sometimes had the chance to wear the miniature of this Sacred Treasure at official white tie occasions, but the big model can only be worn on uniform. Not intending to boast, but I have also been awarded the third class of the order of the Rising Sun, and as a neckbadge, I had the chance to wear the original order several times. Especially in London, which was my last post abroad, where formal diplomatic functions are more frequent than in other countries. As a side note, the highlight for me, not only as a diplomat, but also as a medal collector was when I attended a white tie function at Buckingham Palace and was presented to Queen Elizabeth, who was wearing a splendid jewelled collar of the Order of the Garter. Pieter

I have a fourth class Sacred Treasure issued in July 1983 to myself when I served as a diplomat in Japan. It has two rivets on the left and right arm. The rivets have a + incision on top for a scewdriver. Unfortunately I am a digiilliterate and don't know how to post a picture. The accompanying certificate was signed by prime minister Nakasone and is numbered 9809. By the way Paul (Murphy), did you buy the Defence of Legations set? I was very interested but it went beyond my budget. Pieter

Indeed living was difficult in Japan just after the war, especially for the military, who didn't get their salaries or pensions anymore. A sad story to prove this is that even the family of the famous admiral Heihachiro Togo had to sell off his orders and medals to survive and keep their modest home in Tokyo. Mr. Nakabori, a (rice) merchant bought them at that time, the whole lot including the award certificates. You see them regularly in his publications on Japanese orders and medals. I think after his death the famlily donated or sold the collection of Togo to the Mikasa in Yokosuka, but I'm not sure.

Hi Nick, it is 35mm, so a fourth class. Interesting also is that it is the regular issue and not a non-christian version. But then, already in the early 1900's there were quite a number of Japanese that were converted to the Russian orthodox faith. A big dilemma for these people when the Russo-Japanese war started. Of course I am willing to post pictures, but don't know how to do it; I am a digilliterate. What I usually do when I send pictures is to put them on my desktop and then email them as attach. Can I do that also here, or do you have any other suggestion? thanks and regards, Pieter

Hi Nick, I bought in Japan some time ago, a golden Russian St. Anna order, that had been converted into an obijime (accessory) for on the obihime (rope around the obi). It was beautifully done with a kind of gold frame around the order. Might have been done by the widow of a Japanese who received the St. Anna order, because I don't think in Tarist Russia many women, except the nobility, received Imperial orders. Have never seen a Japanese order adapted in this way. Regards, Pieter

Hi Nick and Richard, Indeed very useful figures! To me the almost 340,000 Kites awarded for the Pacific war sounds more realistic. Making the statistical extrapolation of Nick on this figure, the number of 3d class Kites awarded would be about 1400, still a lot, but plausible. Could the drop of Kites in 1942 be because in 1941 the production suddenly quadrupled, resulting in a surplus? Regards, Pieter

Sal, as far as I know Vicorian Orders issued to foreigners were and are still unnumbered. I have a KCVO set awarded to a foreigner that is unnumbered. Pieter

Hi Nick, to add to your statistical data, if the information of my Japanese researcher friend is correct, during the Showa era up to april 1940, fifty 3d class Golden Kites were awarded. These were of course mainly for the Manchurian Incident, and the certificates were still signed by the Emperor (after April 1940, the Emperor only signed the 1st and 2d cl). Total number of Golden Kites for this incident were 9,000, so the number of the 3d class awarded comes to about 0.5%. Pieter

I made some errors in my earlier message, but have corrected them in the meantime

Hi Nick, a very impressive statistical survey of the Golden Kite. Some small comments from my side. I have always wondered where Peterson got his number of more than one million Kites from. even considering the severity and length of the Pacific war, about 950,000 Kites is quite a number. Your statistical deduction (derived from this figure) of almost 4000 third class Kites seems to me improbable in reality, considering the conditions to be nominated in it. In my many years of collecting Japanese orders & medals, I have never seen an official certificate of award for the Golden Kite, issued after Showa 15nen (1940). I mean the one with the seal of State and picture of the Kite. I have several Kite documents of this period in my collection, but what happened after that year? Perhaps some other forum members have seen later date official certificates. I do have a temporary appointment document in the fifth class of the Golden Kite awarded 30th December 1941, but it is the common A4 sized document, which does not mention the number of award. So in case after 1940 the official certificates were for the duration of the war not issued anymore, it is very hard to verify numbers throught the figures mentioned on those documents. Brings me back to the question where Peterson got his number from. Regards, Pieter

Hi Nick, as I wrote earlier, I got them (already quite some time ago) from a longtime Japanese collector friend, who used to be a researcher at an university in Tokyo. I think he is retired now, although with Japanese you never know if they really retire. He had good contacts with researchers from the Government and Kunaicho archives. I think he assembled the figures by going through the Imperial resolutions. His main interest is certificates, especially those who have the signature of the Emperor. Pieter

Nick you are completely right, it should read 22 of the 1st cl and 120 of the 2d. The numbers I gave are the totals for the whole period. Also I made a spelling mistake, Munchuraian should ofcourse be Manchurian. Pieter

Hi Nick, Mr. Nakabori mentions only the total numbers of Golden Kites awarded per war. to sum it up again; Japan-China war (1894-95); 2000 China 1900 (Boxer rebellion); 200 Russo-Japanese war (1904-05); 109600 1914-15 war (Tsingtao); 3000 1914-1920 war (Europe & Siberia); 4800 Tsinan Incident (1927-29); 70 Munchuraian Incident (1931-34); 9000 China Incident (1937- 40); 107000 He gives no figures for the Pacific war. The number of classes awarded I have from another Japanese collector, but he only has researched the figures for the 1st-5th class of the Golden Kite. Next to the numbers I gave you already for the Taisho period, he has for the Meiji periiod cummulatively; first cl 17, second cl 85, third cl 463, fourth cl 2250 and fifth cl 8400. For the Showa period he has only figures for the first and second class, 42 and 210 respectively, unfortunately no numbers on the lower grades. Pieter

Hi Japan X, according to the late Mr. Nakabori, a well known Japanese collector of orders & decorations, for the Japanese actions against the German possessions in China and the Pacific, 3000 Golden Kites were issued (Taisho 3-4 nen). For the participation of the Japanese in the Mediterranean and the dispatch of troops to Siberia 4800 Golden Kites were issued (Taisho 4-9 nen). Numbers of the higher classes of the Golden kite awarded during both periods first cl: 3, second cl: 5: third cl: 30, fourth cl: 200, fifth cl: 600. You omitted the Boxer rebellion (China 1900), according to Mr. Nakabori for this action 200 Golden Kites were awarded. Hope this little contribution helps you with your study on the types issued. Regards, Pieter

Thanks Jeff, I guess this limitation only applied to Hawaiians and foreign recepients were excluded? Mine was awarded to a Japanese citizen. Since it existed for only ten years, I suppose the number of grand-officers actually awarded will probably be not so much more than the number you mentioned. Pieter

I have a question on the order of the Crown of Hawaii(Hawaii Ke Kalaunu) and perhaps one of the members can help me. I have in my collection a Grand Officer set of this order and I wondered how many of this class were awarded during the short span of existence of the order from 1882 till 1892. The set is cased and exists of a four pointed silver star with the cross in gold on it, and a 88mm wide sash (white with blue edges) without the cross as stipulated for the Grand officer. Any information on this order and the numbers awarded will be much appreciated. Pieter

Hi Paul, I am new to Gmic, and since I am a longtime collector of worldwide ODM I find this site quite interesting. As I have lived in Japan for some time, I have been able to collect Japanese ODM including the certificates. Your Masterclass on Japanese certificates is very useful, especially since the average collector would not be able to read them. If I may add some information which you will know already, but may be interesting to other readers. When the document would be signed by the Emperor the first column on the righthand side of the seal will read something like " under Our sign manual and affixed with the Imperial seal " wheras a certificate without the signature would only mention the Imperial seal. Interesting is that during the last year of his reign Emperor Meiji was sometimes too ill to take care of affairs of state. Certificates that would usually carry his signature were issued with only the Imperial seal, but the text on the certificate would still say under Our sign manual etc. I presume these certificates are scarce. As you mentioned already elsewhere in this thread, when the Taisho Emperor became longterm ill, Crown Prince Hirohito became regent, and he signed with both his father's and his own name. If I remember correctly you wrote that you have such a certificate for the Rising Sun with Paulonia Flowers, awarded to a Brish Field Marshall. I don't have the figures including foreigners, but the number of Rising Sun with Paulownia Flowers awarded to Japanese during the regency is 20, and these certificates are therefore quite rare.