Dave Wilkinson

Interesting. Do Welsh forces not request their police medals via the Welsh Government or does the devolved assembly not have any responsibility for policing. South Wales would soon get their act together if someone there returned their medal and demanded that it be re-issued with Welsh engraving. I'm surprised that the S. Wales Fed. reps have not bottomed that one. Dave.

I would not take this info. at face value but would seek to have it confirmed by someone. A further FOI request to the RM posing several direct questions. 1. After manufacturing, do you name/engrave medals? 2. If the answer is "no" when did you cease to name medals? etc. Along those lines. Part of what Liverpool Medals say is certainly not correct. Medals are not sent to the recipient. As far as I'm aware they are sent to the Government Dept. (with delegated powers under the Royal Warrant) that ordered, and paid for, the medal. It is then sent to the force who requested that the award be made. As I said earlier, a step by step outline of the whole process would answer this and several other unanswered questions. Going back to the reply the RM gave you. It's interesting that they do not say "We do not name medals". Why on earth they are not more helpful is beyond me. It really is like pulling teeth! Dave.

There are two possibilities. Either someone at the RM can't be bothered to deal properly with your FOI request (quite probable), or, as you suggest the medals are sent to someone else for engraving. If the RM are making the medals, then I can't reconcile the fact that they would send them to someone else for engraving. If they did then it's fairly mean of them not to tell you that, rather than saying simply "we've not engraved any medals in the Welsh language". The final bit where they indicate that they have no further information which touches upon your request is very odd. I've often wondered what the "step by step" process is from the CC signing the certificate asking for the medal to be awarded, to the medal actually arriving at Police HQ for presentation. The answer to your question lies at the heart of the complete process. What happens to the certificate signed by your CC? Who is it sent to? If you find out where it goes, ring them up or send them an email and try to get to the bottom of it that way. Or if you are not too far from Colwyn Bay, go and see the civvy who handles the who thing. Or on reflection, 'phone (or email) the FOI woman at the RM. Dave.

In view of what our Canadian friend says, I would suggest that if you have paid any great sum of cash for this item, that you return the stick to whoever you bought it from and ask for your money back. My initial thoughts about it were, it seems correct. If you are going to embark upon collecting truncheons, please do be careful about what you buy. There are some very dishonest people out there. Someone has clearly gone to a considerable length to deceive. Good luck! Dave.

I've spent an hour or so trying to identify the Coat of Arms and the motto without success. I've consulted "The Book of Public Arms" by A.C. Fox-Davies published in 1915 and also "Civic Heraldry of England & Wales" by C.W. Scott-Giles published in 1933. The Fox-Davies book consists of 876 pages and shows illustrations for only a small proportion of the entries. There is no index of mottos. So, without carefully examining the written description of over 600 plus coats of arms there is no reasonably quick way of me identifying the arms shown on the truncheon. The Scott-Giles book is easier to refer to with an index of mottos for all the arms. Your motto is not listed nor are the arms illustrated. I've also looked at the websites dealing with Civic Heraldry (as I assume you also have), in an effort to identify and link the motto with a particular town, but without success. That exact motto is not shown at all on the sites I looked at. I have a much earlier Victorian edition of the Fox-Davies book. I will look at that when I get time on the off chance that your arms may be shown as an illustration, as opposed to just a description. I'll get back to you if I have any success. Dave.

Interestingly, the Garter King of Arms has said publicly this morning that there is no requirement for "Organisations" to change their current Crown and Cypher. It is a matter for them to decide upon. Dave.

It's worth bearing in mind that there will be a load of PLS&GC medals etc. in the pipeline which will have been prepared ready to send to forces by the various Govt. Depts. who have delegated powers to award them, so I think that for some months bobbies who are in line to get their medal will get an EIIR version. Dave.

Many thanks. I was not aware that they'd produced a specific medal for the NCA. Thought (wrongly) that they were issued with the normal police version. Dave.

Photos now attached. Dave.

Only a handful of forces produced the EVIIIR badges but I know of only one force that actually issued them and that was Gloucestershire Constabulary. I have a photo of a Superintendent from that force wearing his EVIIIR cap badge. I'll locate it and attach an image. Dave.

When you say that an "NCA" PLS&GC medal sold several years ago on eBay. Presumably it was described as such by the seller as opposed to having "NCA" marked on the medal. If the latter was the case then it was surely an error of some sort. I say that as force names are not marked (more is the pity) on such medals. Dave.

I can't read the full motto. What does it say? The second word appears to be "enterprise" but I'm struggling with the first. Dave.

The announcement of a return to the use of the Imperial State crown alongside the release of images the King's new cypher gives me the opportunity of reminding those with an interest in collecting police insignia of the short lived reign of King Edward VIII. He succeeded the throne following the death of his father in 1936 and abdicated a few months later choosing marriage to an American divorcee over service to his country. The Metropolitan Police were quick to have helmet plates and cap badges made featuring the new King's cypher, only to be stopped in their tracks when he announced that he was stepping down as King. There is no evidence that the badges ever saw the light of day on the streets of London. Appended are photographs of the badges in question. I suspect that the Metropolitan Police will be unable to resist the desire to incorporate the new King's cypher into their badges. When they do it seems probable that the first to wear them will be officers stationed at the various palaces both in England and Scotland. Dave.

I predict that many will not bother changing the actual metal badges for many years, if not at all. Far too much expenditure involved. Forms, letterheads and the like will probably be changed immediately in those forces that use the cypher. Again, others may not bother. Dave.

The 1953 coronation medal and the 1977 jubilee medal were divvied out on a restricted basis to the organisations who were entitled to receive it. Whether you attended the 1953 coronation or were on duty in connection with it, did not guarantee that you got a medal. Many did not. Dave.

It's been suggested that the current QC will not be altered. We'll have to wait and see. Dave.

I'd say yes, there will be a Coronation medal. As to who will get it, I think that's still to be decided. Dave.

I see that no one has responded to you so I will. That said, truncheons are not my speciality. The first thing you need to do, in my opinion is to try to identify the coat of arms. It is not one I recognise. There are "on line" sites which you can refer to under the title "Civic Heraldry". Or alternatively you can possibly consult a reference book at your local public library. Bear in mind that over many years these things have been faked. I'm not suggesting that your example falls into that slot but bear the possibility in mind. Some observations. Aside from the coat of arms there does not seem to be anything exceptional about it in terms of the basic design. That pattern of truncheon was carried by bobbies in the UK right up to the 1990's. The strap looks a recent addition. The canvas cover looks as if it's been fashioned out of a truncheon pocket taken from a pair of police trousers with VR stamped onto it. Why would VR need to be applied to it? Considering its purported age, the paintwork/ finish looks very shiny. Posting a clear close up photo of the coat of arms on here may help. Someone may recognise it. As to is suggested age. Its displaying a "VR" which is indicative of a period prior to 1902 (Queen Victoria). I hope this is helpful. Dave.

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did. I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest. If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality. Best of luck! Dave.

David Armstrong - Jones, the 2nd Earl of Snowdon, AKA David Linley, Princess Margaret's son. Dave.

The City of London Police do not use any crown on their helmet plate and never have. Hampshire Constabulary use the arms of Hampshire as their badge. That does feature a representation of a crown. However, this has never been altered, due to the fact that the design is a grant of arms registered by Hampshire County Council at the College of Arms. The Guernsey Police have worn the same KC helmet plate since circa. 1902. They didn't change it in 1952, so I can't see that they will change it now. The Belfast Harbour Police have worn the KC on their badges since 1939 and still wear it. Finally, Sergeants and Constables in the Herts. Constabulary are still wearing a QVC on their cap badges and have never changed despite the Sovereign's crown changing not once but twice in the intervening years. It seems that there is no hard and fast rule. Dave.

Of course, you can own one if you've not been awarded it. Thousands of individuals who have officially been awarded the medal have sold their entitlement via numerous websites. If you buy such a medal, it's yours to do with it what you wish. Look on eBay UK and similar auction sites. If you can afford to buy a genuine example do so. Stay away from the copies, unless you actually want a copy! Dave.

There may only be a change for those forces that currently use "EIIR" as part of their insignia. These days you can count those forces on two hands (if that). If he decides to retain the present Crown, then those forces who use a coat of arms in the centre of their badges will have no need to change. Dave.

Made as a prop. for a fictional TV production (Children of the Damned") about circa. 20 years ago. Dave.

I would not hold your breath. I suspect that they will tell you that the amount of research involved would be such that to provide such information would be inordinate and that if it were to be provided there would be a cost involved which you would need to be prepared to pay. Dave.