marrauder

It can be very possibly mini. All I wanted to say, is that if there is some doubt, it is doubt between mini and patrotic piece. There is surely no possibility this can be prinzen size cross. Prinzen size is only size reduction of "normal" cross. Sometimes (not always) it is also reduction of detail quality, but never reduction of design features. Something other is to speak about patrioticas and minis. Both are unofficial, so what is typical for them? IMO it is very doubtful. For me, very typical for 1870 EK mini is this pearl beading. Here on Godet button.

...or patriotic piece? I miss the beading rim to call it mini or even prinzen size.

Well known fake. Crown is wrong, hardware is wrong, paintjob is horrible. I observed similar piece in hands when I was at fleamarket one week ago. There was even the SS marking on the "schraube" and it was one piece construction.

2nd classes are thicker than 1st. Same with FJ bravery medals. Regards

No reserve, mehehe, joke of the week.

Looks like now everybody has its Mukden. Time to wait for new collectors, hehe.

I think it is always better to conserve the crosses than the ideas. Regards

Another version of white enamelled badge is here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-JAPANESE-WW2-WOUNDED-ASSOCIATION-BADGE-JAPAN-PIN-MEDAL-ORDER-WOUND-NAVY-WAR-/280865376489?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4164e188e9

It was just joke - You outbid me in seeing bigger "miracle" as Nick calls it. I know you didn´t buy it, as well as I didn´t buy that expensive Mukden medal. Eeeh, I noticed it sooner, hard knock life to be the joker between collectors...

Nice specimen, isn´t it? Just offered on eBay as "Post WW2 wounded imperial army navy soldier association Toyonaka City Merit medal." Regards

Graf, I didn´t buy any EK1 from emedals, neither original nor theatrical copy. Sometimes at total beginning I bought EK2 1914 from emedals for quite big prize (70 dollars), but I knew what I paid for - I was not member of any forum and I was looking for big and seriously looking dealer to be sure that my first cross would be original. Now I know that I could burn my fingers very easily, but I was lucky and that ek2 is still my lovely good R marked cross. But I like to observe emedals stuff. They are also humans so they sometimes do mistakes and offer some items quite cheap. To continue our linguistic debate, I would like to say one more thing. Old german catalogues are crucial for picture comparing (with pieces we hold in our hands), but not for terminology. In the times they were printed (let´s say 20´s-30´s), there were only award crosses and private purchases. The ww1 experience was still very fresh, so it is normal, that they called those holy sacred crosses awarded in the field originals, and those private purchased were considered as copies. But then another 80 years came, during which also fakes, forgeries, reproductions and other stuff appeared. From this point of view it is normal that also those private purchases started to be sacred for us, because they were worn by veterans - and we started to "protect" them with the call for "originality". Langauge (and meaning of the words) is just developing in the stream of time, we can´t do anything with that. But OK, if we are going to rally on what is written in old catalogues totally, please Graf, sell me your LDO nachbildung for 3,80 Reichsmarks (plus shipping by Graf Spee), please. I will apreciate your respecting of historical correctness (but I will buy those banknotes on eBay for dozen euros, hehe). Some collectors avoid this neverending dispute with the terms "good" or "bad". You can see it many times here that the answer is " this cross is good", not "original". I think it´s quite good solution, although - ad extremis - it can be sometimes confusing too. I saw bad fakes but I saw also really good ones... Regards

Hah, yes, I felt it to be trend, I didn´t know you are the author, hehehe. Anyway, it was good move - real theatrical copy (mainly from famous play or movie) can be sometimes more expensive than original. But to sell Latvian fake as Theatrical copy is quite funny, isn´t it.

Graf, Niemann is also human, so he did some mistakes. But combination of his expertise with the relevant info which was offered to you by hagahr and sascha is quite sure thing. Btw, I think you will be dissapointed by what NIemann writes about that cross. According to the expertises I have seen (and own) he repeats still one phrase on them (if the cross is original of course). Only measures and weight changes. If there will be some poll, I will vote for terms like original award cross, original private purchase, original 57 version, etc. If we will call private purchases "copies" it will be more confusing than helpful. Now beginners are fooled by dealers who sell fakes as originals. After that they will be fooled also by those who - quite honestly - sell fakes as copies. I can imagine that eBay conversation: - Hallo! Is this original? - No, this is copy... - Ok, fine. But is it original copy? - What??? - Errm, I mean, is it nachbildung, sammmleranfertigung, reproduktion, kopie, oder juwelieranfertigung? - Wtf... But if there really is time to change the world, I would start with emedals. Not a long time ago they started to sell fakes as "Theatrical copies".

Thanks Chris, that´s the prevailing feeling of mine - to not make compromises in my hobby, I have them enough in my job. But...you know, I am also Godet addict, so I want to know first - original or fake? Regards.

"There is need for a thread about originals and not originals, not originals splitted into copies and fakes." This is what I wrote you at the beginning. Answer the Graf´s question simply and open the new thread by yourself. I will read it very carefully, believe me. "But it is quite pointless, if individuals do not even accept a common basis." Individuals accept common basis, but they feel worthless to repeat it again and again... Yes, original is only award period, private purchase is copy... I know it deadly for sure. But when I will ask next time, if some cross is original or not - all members of this forum will understand that I am not asking about award period, but about originality according to the supposed production era. To answer your previous question about how I had helped Graf... I can not help him, I am beginner. But I wanted to help you to become a real moderator. Moderator, it is not only knowledge, but also behaviour. I see I was wrong

Don´t you mean this one? I see some differences in oaks and crown as well.

Do you mean this one? Photo is from Militärhistorische Museum der Bundeswehr. No need to apologize, I didn´t buy it. It´s from eBay auction, and the guy offers also the EK1 1813, which is definitely wrong, also for my beginner´s eyes (the "maker´s marks": star, scratch and 13). http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orden-EK-1-1813-Eisernes-Kreuz-1Kl-1813-Nadel-Guter-Zustand-Selten-/251039690806?pt=Militaria&hash=item3a7321b036

I understand, speedytop, what Graf is asking. And I believe you understand it too. Hagahr understand it even better. So, where is your problem? Bad awakening? Just open new thread about originals versus private purchases (versus copies) if you think it is needed. Otherwise you are just spolied CD player, like some guys in 57 version forum. Sorry for strong words, but moderators role is not to disgust member - mainly when you still didn´t help him with the question even a bit.

One more picture.

...and this is what I received. Difference was 6 catalogue numbers, prize was the same. When I wrote them "warm email", the answer was: "I am sorry that we have made a mistake with your order and it is a mystery for me too." They offered me item return and money back. But I offered them to contact second buyer, who also received wrong item. I received second email with completely different answer: "My employer has switched your ordered number to the one you get because he dont see a difference (he is not a collector) and thought he did the right thing for you. He did that because your original ordered item number was sold before you has ordered it." For me this kind of attitude is completely disgusting, I don´t know how is it for you. Maybe you think I am doing too much loud for nothing, but - would you be happy to order nice looking EK2 WS marked and receive - in the same prize - something that doesn´t look so good, although it is WS marked too? I think no. All I want to know now is, if I should use return policy, or to leave this piece in my collection. All I don´t like on it is deep flaw on the top of the button, which can be seen from both sides. There is no scratch on the gilt, which means it was not caused by wearer. The other question mark is missing gilt between the swords (it can be slightly seen on the pic). The piece originally ordered by me had nothing like this as well as no other godet button I have in my collection. Thank you for your opinions.

I would like to share my experience and hear you opinions as well. This is what I ordered from one seriously looking german dealer site:

I would like to hear your opinions about this cross. Browsing the GMIC and WAF forums I am more confused than I was at the beginning. Some threads say this is good, some are sure this is bad. What´s the problem? Is it because core style itself is good, but heavily faked, so one have to look for other features (cast/struck core, blackened/painted, etc...) ? Thank you for opinions.

He is she, Dieter, for sure. Sometimes you can see her face (partially covered with camera) mirroring in the highly polished lacquer box of some Rising Sun medal. 130 dolls for Russo-Japanese piece? This is really extreme. You outbid me, hehe. And was it 0,99 dollar auction, or Buy now?

There are two possible reasons: 1. Mukden has deeper relief on the back, and looking more militarily 2. Seller rally on the fools like me who think that there is a mint mark )

Typical veryberries (and matsu´s) angle. It helps to minimize flashbacks, I suppose.