filfoster

The OP referenced pre-war dress uniforms, of which Glenn has provided some spendid examples. I can't easily upload photos but the generals in my earlier post wore the regimental uniforms described, in field gray as 'service uniforms' as well as wearing gala or pre-war uniforms. Being the 'chef' or ala suite of a regiment was a very high honor and the generals showed their appreciation by wearing the uniforms often. The Second World War generals did this as well. Von Rundstedt wore the regimental uniform of the 18th infantry regiment and Fedor von Bock also wore an artillery regimental uniform.

YES! Most standard WW1 histories show von Hindenburg wearing the Third Foot Guards regimental uniform with appropriate rank insignia; von Mackensen is most often photographed wearing the Hussar Leib Regiment uniform field gray version; the Kaiser is almost always wearing a regimental uniform, most often the First Foot Guards. Even Ludendorff wore the shoulder boards for the 39th Fusilier regiment in late war photos, after he had been named honorary chef of that regiment.

Thank you Glenn! This is what I needed. Once again, the GMIC comes through.

Many Prussian generals wore regimental uniforms, either as regimental 'chef' or 'ala suite'. Kaiser Wilhelm I most often wore the uniform of the First Foot Guards, with his appropriate rank insignia. Question: Did these regimental uniforms incorporate the general's additional four buttons below the waist seam?

Is there a device on the knot of the Red Eagle ribbon bow?

So the Red Eagle would have been worn with the yellow and white ribbon, not the Iron Cross style ribbon? The order now is: 1. EK 2 2. Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid 3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown and bow on the ribbon 4. 25 year Long service 5. Centenary medal 6. Saxon St. Henry 7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross 8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War 9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross 10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery 11.Anhalt Friedrich Cross 12. Brunswick War Merit Cross 13. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War 14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross 15. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross 16. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg 17. Hanseatic Cross Bremen 18. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

Thank you! I am trying to replicate this medal bar (using replica medals where I can) and this is essential information. I will try to post a picture of it when completed. I have all the medals except the Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War. The Merit Cross for War Aid is a surprise, since it is a comparatively insignificant medal. I have a photo of Hindenburg's medal bar (yes, I copied that one too), and he also included it on his medal bar. Your explanation of the precedence makes perfect sense. So the order is: 1. EK 2 2. Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid 3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown and swords 4. 25 year Long service 5. Centenary medal 6. Saxon St. Henry 7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross 8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War 9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross 10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery 11.Anhalt Friedrich Cross 12. Brunswick War Merit Cross 13. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War 14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross 15. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross 16. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg 17. Hanseatic Cross Bremen 18. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

A cross can clearly be seen before the Brunswick War Merit Cross. This looks like the Anhalt Friedrich Cross so the line up is now: 1. EK 2 2. Max Joseph knight 3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown and swords 4. 25 year Long service 5. Centenary medal 6. Saxon St. Henry 7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross 8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War 9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross 10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery 11.Anhalt Friedrich Cross 12. Brunswick War Merit Cross 13. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War 14. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross 15. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross 16. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg 17. Hanseatic Cross Bremen 18. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

#8 and #9 above should be switched, and since no one else has piled on, I will propse to put the Saxon St. Henry right after the Centenary, moving those down to 9 and 10, so now we have: 1. EK 2 2. Max Joseph knight 3. Red Eagle 3rd with swords 4. 25 year Long service 5. Centenary medal 6. Saxon St. Henry 7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross 8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War 9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross 10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery 11. Brunswick War Merit Cross 12. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War 13. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross 14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross 15. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg 16. Hanseatic Cross Bremen 17. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck Thoughts? Corrections?

His early medal bars have many 'round' medals and few crosses, so I am guessing he wore it. Can anyone find a good photo? This would indicate as a commissioned officer, he would have been authorized the non-combatant medal on a combatant ribbon: http://antique-photos.com/en/awardsdatabase/german-empire/prussia/300-commemorative-medal-for-1870-1871-military-campaigns.html

Wilhelm II was made an officer in 1869, when he was 10 years old. He obviously did not actually serve in any military capacity but would he have been entitled to wear the War Commemorative Medal of 1870-71 non-combatant (steel) version by virtue of his commission and royal status? Did he wear it? The photos are difficult to decipher.

Andy, Thank you very much.

Posting now three threads on this Ludendorff character, can anyone confirm that he received the Grand Cross of the Saxon Military Order of St. Henry? The online sources maddeningly disclose 12 recipients in WWI and then only name five, not including Ludendorff. I would suppose that he did get it but cannot find a definitive confirmation. It is interesting to note that the man who was, perhaps the most powerful man in Germany in 1917 and 1918, is poorly served by written accounts of his uniform details or his military awards and decorations. I have found nothing that is comprehensive. Apparently the Kaiser's personal disdain for him is shared by historians and collectors.

Re Rank List Speak, Ludendorff is credited with a "BMJ1", which is some level of the Bavarian Military Max Joseph Order See this thread: . http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/56836-hanseatic-bars-show-yours/page-3?hl=ludendorff#entry532672 What is this? It does not correspond to the published 'glossary' of these in the pinned topics. Is it a Commander's Cross? The pinned menu says the regular knight award is BMMJO. The above thread also does not seem to include a Grand Cross award for the Max Joseph, which some posters have credited him with. Thoughts?

Is anyone else concerned that this does not follow the pre-war or wartime Prussian (he was Prussian) order of precedence, although, if #2 is the Max Joseph, it approximates the Kaiser's 21-place medal bar in precedence? The Max Joseph at #2 would not be according to the published orders of precedence but only the Royal Hohenzollern Household Order 3rd with swords would come before the Red Eagle 3rd, but the medal in the photo does not have the HOH shaped cross arms. The #4. medal could also be a Crown Order and appears to have 'swords' So, now we have: 1. Ek2 2. Saxon St. Henry (could have been BMMJO but he was gazetted the BMJ1) Better: Max Joseph? 3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown 4. 25 year long service cross Better: Crown Order with swords? 5. Centenary Medal 6. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross 7. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War 8. Hesse General Honor Decoration for Bravery 9 Oldenburg Friederich August Cross 10. ? 11. Brunswick War Merit Cross 12.Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War 13. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross 14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross 15.Hanseatic Cross Hamburg 16.Hanseatic Cross Bremen 17. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

Thanks; But then what is #10?

Surely someone knowledgable must know what these are. OK, I will guess 1. EK 2 2. Saxon St. Henry 3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown 4 ? 5.Hessian General Honor Decoration For Bravery (medal and ribbon also look like Centenary Medal) 6. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross 7. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War 8. ? 9. Oldenburg Freidrich August Cross 10. Long Service Cross ? 11. Bruswick War Merit Cross 12. Saxe Meiningen Cross for War Merit 13. ? 14. ? 15-17 Hanseatic Crosses

Andy and Glenn, thank you for helping to clear this up for me. It appears the post war photos show him with the white underlay on his shoulder boards commemorating his appointment as 'chef' of the 39th Fusilier regiment. Now, if only someone could identify all the medals he's wearing in that photo, I could reproduce a great display.

Andy, thanks for your suggestion but the article claims that he both commanded the 39th Fusiliers and was later made 'chef'. This article http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/l2/erich_ludendorff.html claims that Ludendorff was the commander of the 39th Fusilier Regiment before WW I, perhaps 1913, and later, on the date of his resignation, 26 October, 1918, he was made the 'chef' of the regiment. The post-war picture seems to show white underlay to the shoulder boards. It seems to clear this up we need answers to two questions: 1. Does anyone have better documentation of his being named the 'chef' of the regiment on 16 October 1918? This source http://books.google.com/books?id=GbNkAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=Erich+Ludendorff+39th+Fusilier+Regt.&source=bl&ots=06j7dmwC1Y&sig=ycKi6oiotM1g1Nuw0trd02IlPOc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d1hhU8bMGYuUyATYv4D4CA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Erich%20Ludendorff%2039th%20Fusilier%20Regt.&f=false says he was appointed 'chef' of the 39th on 1 November 1917. This article also says Ludendorff was assigned command of the 39th 27 January 1913. (scroll up one page) 2. Was white the correct shoulder board underlay color for this regiment at that time?

This source http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/l2/erich_ludendorff.html confirms Ludendorff as 'chef' of the 39th Fusiliers as of 26/10/1918. That would most easily explain the very white appearance of the shoulder board underlay on the post war photographs of him, as in the thumbnail attached to my original post.

Glenn: Thanks for this. That would be my guess, given the very light color of the photographs. I had searched to see if he was an honorary 'chef' or 'ala suite' to any regiments and had not found this. Great info and until someone has more conclusive documentation or persuasive arguement, that is what I will go on. P

Anyone know if this bar still exists or has anyone tried to copy it? As an example of copy medal bars, I am attaching a thumbnail of some that I have made: The bottom one is the Kaiser's as in my avatar.

Andy: Thanks for your reply. I had thought of that but would need another precedent. For example, Alfred von Schlieffen wore Great General Staff uniform (See thumbnail) when he was the Chief of the Great General Staff. Does anyone have a verification that Schlieffen's facing colors worn on that uniform were crimson/carmine red, rather than general's poinceau or 'poppy' red?

In the medals and decorations forum, I have asked what medals Ludendorff wore in many photos (see the thumbnail attached). As First Quartermaster General, with the substantive rank of General of Infantry, what color underlay is he wearing to his shoulder boards in thie thumbnail? The most logical color would be red, for a general, but even accounting for the perversity of the photo process at that time, (Hindenburg's bright yellow underlay for collar tabs and shoulder boards always looks dark), the color looks too light to be red. Can any one solve this mystery? Virtually no online reference or image I have found shows the color clearly. This is frustrating since he was among the best known figures of the Great War.

I searched this and am surprised it was not done to death before. If I missed it, please direct me to the thread. Has anyone identified all the medals on Ludendorff's well-photographed medal bar? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Erich_Ludendorff_1918.jpg Other than Danile Krause's post last year identifying all his awards in the shorthand notation that I can just barely get through, no one seems to have done this. Here is Mr. Krause's submission Ludendorff, Erich GdI 1.OQM Ch GS plmE, RAOGKEX, RAO1EX, RAO3SKr, KO2, HOH2aX, EKGK, VK, DA, HEK1X, AK, BZ1X, BrK2, BMJ1, BMVO, BH, HH, LüH, HT, LKEK, MG2b, MMV1, MStMV1, MStMV2T, OV1XmL, OK1, RK, SH1, SH2a, SA1gStX, GSF2aX, EH1X, CK, SMK, WVK1X, WM1, WM2, WK1X, WK2c, ÖL1K, ÖL2aK, ÖEK1K, ÖFJ2a, ÖM1K, ÖM2K, ÖGrSL, JM3, SS1, TH His bar looks to be about 17 medals, just 4 behind the Kaiser's famous one. Any takers here?