Gordon Craig

Charles, Thanks. More info to file away. Surprised about the star colours but then this is really a new area for me. Cheers, Gordon

Charles, I guess I did leave a bit too early. Dorothy was cold waiting outside the museum and not feeling all that well by the time I got there. Just one of those days diabetics have from time to time. She revived after we ate, visited the Red Bus Book Store and the Spring Festival booths at Varosmajor Ter! A brief report for the rest of the forum members on the International Militaria Show in Eger. It is international because there were some Austrian dealers there and they had some nice German WWII stuff most of which was authentic. Note the "most". I went primarily to meet Zsolt in person, look at some badges he had for sale and to check out the show. The show was interesting from the point of view that there were no faces that I recognized. There was some new stuff on the tables that hasn't shown up in Budapest yet but prices were generally high. From the door entrance fee, which was almost double that of Budapest, to the prices of things on the tables. The show was about the same size as the one in Budapest and I doubt that I would drive the 130 Kms to Eger for the show again unless it was to look at something really worthwhile. There were a couple of interesting uniforms. A Hungarian WWII Panzer officer with quite a thread row for ribbons and an older standup collar uniform that I did not recognize. I tried to buy a group of medals and documents from a guy to go with the Fireman's uniform I posted yesterday but he would not come down to a reasonable price so he still owns it. Time to go and take some pictures of today's haul so I can post them on the forum. Regards, Gordon

The next cap is 100% correct for the uniform posted earlier.

Gents, Firefighters hats are just as rare as their uniforms but I managed to pick up two at the Military Museum Store last month. The first photo will be of a cap design belonging to the Rakoci era. I am not altogether satisfied with this cap for a number of reasons. 1-the cap badge matches the age of the cap but it was pushed through the lining before the prongs were folded over. Cap badges are normally installed before the lining is installed and are not visible inside the cap like these ones are. 2-The plastic cap cord is correct but has Kadar type buttons. This could be ok as caps were often "upgraded" with new buttons etc. after a regime change. Time and research will resolve these points. The cap was never issued and still have the manufacturers paper tag inside. The manufacturer seems to be the "Sapka ??" company. Unfortunately. whoever cut the lable to size before gluing it into the cap cup most of this part off. Stamped inside of the cap are; PV? and the size 55. Sorry that the photo is a little blurry. I'll post more, and better ones, later on.

Now a close up of the shoulderboards.

Next is a close up of the collar insignia.

Gents, One of the things that is hard to find, even in Hungary, are uniforms belonging to civilian organizations. I've managed to pick up a few and lucked in today on an early Kadar period Fireman's uniform. Charles and I went to a Flea Market I had not been to before and it was worth the trip. Pictured below is a grey senior officers tunic from the firefighting services. Saying this is a senior officer uniform is an educated guess because I have no references for this type of uniform. I am basing this statement on other uniform ranking systems of the same period. Senior officer have larger stars than junior ones and gold is an officers colour versus silver for members at the NCO level. Three large stars may be the equivalent of a Colonel in the military. The shoulder board colours probably have a specific meaning with the red background, echoed behind the collar badges, sivler inner trim and gold outer trim but I do not know what that is. I have been trying to find time for several weeks to visit the Firefighters Museum but haven't made it yet. If, and when, I find out what all these colours mean I'll post an explanation. The tunic is of the standard three button, four pocket design of the period. There is no evidence of any awards or medals ever having been fixed to this tunic. The gold buttons bear the state crest of the Kadar period. The shoulderboards are of the sewn in type. There is one inner pocket in the left breast. There are no lables or markings of any kind in the tunic. Regards, Gordon

gatekeepermaster, I sent you a PM awhile back offering help but didn't get a reply. I'm still willing to help where I can. Regards, Gordon

Paul, I have no idea how many people served in the DDR Forestry Service. There clothing is indeed rare. I have been lucky in some areas of my Forestry Service items especially because of my collector collegue in Berlin. I don't know if anyone has any idea of how many people served in the DDR Forestry Service but I'll ask and let you know what kind of answer I get. Like you, these are the only items of this type that I have seen. There is one other light weight uniform that has escaped me. I have a pair of trousers but not the jacket. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Thanks I have that one and I agree about the pics. Regards, Gordon

Charles, This badge is associated with the Children's Railroad. I don't know why it has both a Posta horn and a railroad set of wings and wheels. When I visited the Children's Railroad Museaum last weekend they have one of these badges on display plus old hats where this is the cap badge they wore. There are flags with this symbol plus flags with just the horn. I'd apprecate it sometime, when you have some time, that we visit this museum together. It really is rather interesting and although small has a lot to see. At an entrance fee of 50 Fts. it woun't break us! Regards, Gordon

The lable inside the woman's tunic. Thats it for today post. Some hats in a few days.

A close up of the shoulderboards here for the woman's tunic.

Now we move on to a DDR State Forestry Service woman's tunic. This tunic is of exactly the same design as the previously shown man's tunic except it buttons on the opposite side. Collectors in Germany have told me that women wore the same shirt as men but I tend to doubt that. Why create a woman's tunic and not awoman's blouse to wear with it? All other DDR organizations did. I have ben unable to abtain a skirt to go with this tunic or pants to go with the previous tunic.

A closeup of the boards on the shirt.

Next up is the summer shirt for wear without a tunic. It is in the form of the standard DDR summer shirt which is a copy of the Russian summer shirt. The green plastic buttons are of identical design to the tunic pictured previously. The size is 42N and the maker is VEB BECHSFELDER HEILIGENSTADT. The similarity to these boards and the NVA Forestry Boards are obvious.

The makers lable in this uniform. A very common company lable found in civilian DDR uniforms.

Next is the standard State Forestry tunic. It has four pockets closed with green plastic buttons. The upper breast pockets are false pockets with just the flap. The front closure has four plastic buttons. The shoulderboards are for the rank of Forst Anwarter. A forestry member who has just joined and is on a probationary period. I beleive this is a later period uniform as it is made of a more modern material instead of wool.

Time to add some state forestry uniforms to this thread. First is a long sleeved shirt for winter wear. Note the green colour which is different from that of the DDR police. This shirt would have been worn with the jacket because there is no way to attach shoulderboards to indicate rank. There is not makers mark in the shirt. Just a size 41N tag at the neck. The tie shown with the shirt is a police tie which I have been told is what was done. Since DDR ties were not notmally marked it is hard to say if there was a specific green State Forestry tie as there was with the NVA Forestry Service uniform.

Ulsterman, Which Osprey book are you refering to? Regards, Gordon

Dan, Here is a picture of a GST functionary in his full blue uniform duringa GST award ceremony. Note the red tie worn by the full time GST functionaries. Also, you can just see the slip on rank tabs (tabs isn't exactly the correct word but I can not think of the right one at this instant) on his shoulder tabs. Regards, Gordon

Charles, Sorry. I should have shown both sides of the cap badges. The large and small cap badges are both new and have one prong broken off the rear so the front photo is somewhat decieving. For those others who read the post, and to remove ambiguity, here is a picture of the back of both the large and the small cap badge next to the back of a Combat Officers badge. The cap badges prongs are clearly pointed and meant to be pushed through a cap and bent over whereas the round ended prongs of the Combat badge are not meant to be bent but to simply slip into the thread loops of the tunic. OOPS Forgot the picture. Here it is now. Regards, Gordon

Dan, Paul, Thanks for the comments on the grouping. Small but interesting. I have to thank my comments in Germany for some of the things like that in my collection. Over the years I've added a number of groupings which unfortunately I can not post because they re all in storage. Congrats on getting the medal Dan. Nice to have a medal and an Urkunde to go together. Looks as though it has been around a bit though. Don't be surprised if it is a little less appealing when you receive it than in the photo. Pictures always make an item look to be in better condition than they really are. I'm not trying to throw cold water on your enthusiasm, just trying to be realistic. You probably already know this but I'll say it again anyway. Don't try and clean the medal, the ribbon or the case. They look the way they because of age and each piece has its own characteristics that make it unique. When I receice something in the mail and it look worse than what I expected I often feel disappointed by this feeling soon passes and I begin to appreciate the piece for what it is. There was only one instance where I was disappointed enough to email the vendor and express my dissatisfaction and that was on a WWII tunic belonging to an Italian General of the University Troops that really was in much worse condition than expected. Especially for the price I padi. But even here, in retrospect, I like this tunic becuase of just what it is. Besides, I have never seen another at any price! Regards, Gordon

Dan, The blue uniform worn with this cap is the same cut as the NVA uniforms but the same colour as the cap. They are also not too common. I wanted to post a picture of one in wear but I don't have a copy on my hard drive only on a floppy and my floppy drive died last week. I'll try and find another picture to post by the weekend. The GST Air caps are really hard to find. There is a specific cap for women in the GST who were full time GST funcrionaries and packed parachutes. Obviously a small group. It is the standard NVA woman's winter cap but in the GST blue with the GST Air insignia on the front. I bought one about a year and a half ago and when it arrived it was a fake. Very disappointing. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Both of the badges I posted appear to be cap badges. Charles says he has seen a pocket badge such as he pictured with the normal double prongs on the back. Correct Charles? T Thatns for the photo. It is a beaut of the badge in wear. I need to add one of those to go with my two cap badges. The breast badge could be worn on an early police uniform but where do I find one of those? Regards, Gordon