Gordon Craig

A view from the back.

Gents, Lat year I was lucky enough to acquire a complete set of the brown leather harness worn by musicians in the NVA. It consists of a brown belt, Y straps, kettle drum hanger, drum stick holster and trumpet carrier. I'll post pictures of the harness I have plus a few pictures of it in wear. I'll also include the harness for the heaver drum which unfortunately I do not own. Regards, Gordon

Charles, I am a little confused by all the late and early terms. Seems as though you are indicating that all the badges posted are breast badges and none are cap badges. True? We will have to get together some time and compare all of the badges, pictures etc and perhaps I'll understand. I did take a closer look at the badge I bought on Sunday and the picture of the one you posted. There is a definite difference in the material the backing plate of the badges are made of. Yours seems to be of aluminum and possibly stamped. Mine is of a thicker brass material and does not have the indentation around the edge of the back. I am not sure how the slightly curved surface was achieved. Great to have all these resources for comparison purposes. Regards, Gordon

Richard S, Interesting medal. Thanks for adding to our fund of knowledge about this association. This could go on for a while! Regards, Gordon

And here is a side view to try and illustrate the thickness of the backing material.

The back of the badge. What looks like a rusty nail is actually a pin.

Gents, Just when you think you have it all worked out, something new pops up! You got to love it? Earlier in this thread Charles posted what he described as the "first" type breast badge for the Association. He then posted a pictures and some confusion ensued as to what shape prongs on the back of a badge should look like. I attempted to address this point with my picture of what I considered two cap badges, because of the pointed prongs, in relationship to a breast badge with round ended prongs. Although not mentioned at the time, the point being that one would not want to wear sharp edges prongs next to the tunic material for fear of putting a hole in it. While I said this, at he time I had a paratroopers basic badge from the Kadar period that had sharp prongs on the back identical to a cap badge. Since I had only seen this one breast badge with these prongs I attributed this to an unusual badge that deserved further research should so information on the wear of such a badge as a breast badge arise. Well, as of today's show in Eger it has arisen. I bought a breast badge today identical to the one Charles posted in posts #16 and 17 of this thread although it is not in as pristine a condition. It did have the advantage of have the cloth (green) background that Charles mentioned. It wasn't until I got home and took the price tag off the back and inspected the badge that I noticed a couple of things. 1-Normally breast badges like this that have coloured cloth behind them only have a thin layer of cloth. This badge has a piece of what apears to cardboard behind the badge with the cloth wrapped around it making it much thicker. 2-The badge is attached to the cloth and cardboard by pushing pointed prongs (much like cap badge prongs) through them both and then bending them over. From the appearance of the prongs they were never pushed through anything else to fasten the breast badge in place so possibly it was sewn on to a uniform using the green cloth. I can not take the backing off the badge without damaging it beyond repair to see if the prongs have been changed at some time in the past so that will have to remain a mystery. The upshot of all of this is "never say never". As a long time collector I should have learned that years ago. The best I can say is that in the majority of cases cap badges have sharp prongs and breast badges have rounded ended ones but there are always exceptions! The badge measures (without taking the backing into consideration) 43mm wide (1 10/16") and 47mm hig (1 13/16"). Here are some photos. Regards, Gordon

Our own forum!!!!!!!!!!Well done Charles. Host away. Gordon

Charles, Thanks. More info to file away. Surprised about the star colours but then this is really a new area for me. Cheers, Gordon

Charles, I guess I did leave a bit too early. Dorothy was cold waiting outside the museum and not feeling all that well by the time I got there. Just one of those days diabetics have from time to time. She revived after we ate, visited the Red Bus Book Store and the Spring Festival booths at Varosmajor Ter! A brief report for the rest of the forum members on the International Militaria Show in Eger. It is international because there were some Austrian dealers there and they had some nice German WWII stuff most of which was authentic. Note the "most". I went primarily to meet Zsolt in person, look at some badges he had for sale and to check out the show. The show was interesting from the point of view that there were no faces that I recognized. There was some new stuff on the tables that hasn't shown up in Budapest yet but prices were generally high. From the door entrance fee, which was almost double that of Budapest, to the prices of things on the tables. The show was about the same size as the one in Budapest and I doubt that I would drive the 130 Kms to Eger for the show again unless it was to look at something really worthwhile. There were a couple of interesting uniforms. A Hungarian WWII Panzer officer with quite a thread row for ribbons and an older standup collar uniform that I did not recognize. I tried to buy a group of medals and documents from a guy to go with the Fireman's uniform I posted yesterday but he would not come down to a reasonable price so he still owns it. Time to go and take some pictures of today's haul so I can post them on the forum. Regards, Gordon

The next cap is 100% correct for the uniform posted earlier.

Gents, Firefighters hats are just as rare as their uniforms but I managed to pick up two at the Military Museum Store last month. The first photo will be of a cap design belonging to the Rakoci era. I am not altogether satisfied with this cap for a number of reasons. 1-the cap badge matches the age of the cap but it was pushed through the lining before the prongs were folded over. Cap badges are normally installed before the lining is installed and are not visible inside the cap like these ones are. 2-The plastic cap cord is correct but has Kadar type buttons. This could be ok as caps were often "upgraded" with new buttons etc. after a regime change. Time and research will resolve these points. The cap was never issued and still have the manufacturers paper tag inside. The manufacturer seems to be the "Sapka ??" company. Unfortunately. whoever cut the lable to size before gluing it into the cap cup most of this part off. Stamped inside of the cap are; PV? and the size 55. Sorry that the photo is a little blurry. I'll post more, and better ones, later on.

Now a close up of the shoulderboards.

Next is a close up of the collar insignia.

Gents, One of the things that is hard to find, even in Hungary, are uniforms belonging to civilian organizations. I've managed to pick up a few and lucked in today on an early Kadar period Fireman's uniform. Charles and I went to a Flea Market I had not been to before and it was worth the trip. Pictured below is a grey senior officers tunic from the firefighting services. Saying this is a senior officer uniform is an educated guess because I have no references for this type of uniform. I am basing this statement on other uniform ranking systems of the same period. Senior officer have larger stars than junior ones and gold is an officers colour versus silver for members at the NCO level. Three large stars may be the equivalent of a Colonel in the military. The shoulder board colours probably have a specific meaning with the red background, echoed behind the collar badges, sivler inner trim and gold outer trim but I do not know what that is. I have been trying to find time for several weeks to visit the Firefighters Museum but haven't made it yet. If, and when, I find out what all these colours mean I'll post an explanation. The tunic is of the standard three button, four pocket design of the period. There is no evidence of any awards or medals ever having been fixed to this tunic. The gold buttons bear the state crest of the Kadar period. The shoulderboards are of the sewn in type. There is one inner pocket in the left breast. There are no lables or markings of any kind in the tunic. Regards, Gordon

gatekeepermaster, I sent you a PM awhile back offering help but didn't get a reply. I'm still willing to help where I can. Regards, Gordon

Paul, I have no idea how many people served in the DDR Forestry Service. There clothing is indeed rare. I have been lucky in some areas of my Forestry Service items especially because of my collector collegue in Berlin. I don't know if anyone has any idea of how many people served in the DDR Forestry Service but I'll ask and let you know what kind of answer I get. Like you, these are the only items of this type that I have seen. There is one other light weight uniform that has escaped me. I have a pair of trousers but not the jacket. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Thanks I have that one and I agree about the pics. Regards, Gordon

Charles, This badge is associated with the Children's Railroad. I don't know why it has both a Posta horn and a railroad set of wings and wheels. When I visited the Children's Railroad Museaum last weekend they have one of these badges on display plus old hats where this is the cap badge they wore. There are flags with this symbol plus flags with just the horn. I'd apprecate it sometime, when you have some time, that we visit this museum together. It really is rather interesting and although small has a lot to see. At an entrance fee of 50 Fts. it woun't break us! Regards, Gordon

The lable inside the woman's tunic. Thats it for today post. Some hats in a few days.

A close up of the shoulderboards here for the woman's tunic.

Now we move on to a DDR State Forestry Service woman's tunic. This tunic is of exactly the same design as the previously shown man's tunic except it buttons on the opposite side. Collectors in Germany have told me that women wore the same shirt as men but I tend to doubt that. Why create a woman's tunic and not awoman's blouse to wear with it? All other DDR organizations did. I have ben unable to abtain a skirt to go with this tunic or pants to go with the previous tunic.

A closeup of the boards on the shirt.

Next up is the summer shirt for wear without a tunic. It is in the form of the standard DDR summer shirt which is a copy of the Russian summer shirt. The green plastic buttons are of identical design to the tunic pictured previously. The size is 42N and the maker is VEB BECHSFELDER HEILIGENSTADT. The similarity to these boards and the NVA Forestry Boards are obvious.

The makers lable in this uniform. A very common company lable found in civilian DDR uniforms.