hunyadi

Certainly these orders were worn and they do seem to withstain damage better than other enamel pieces I have seen. So I agree it could be put together, but I am happy to have a consensious that the order is original

Thanks Valter for your opinion. If it is a reproduction - it’s made with stunning craftsmanship, certainly – and it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference from an original. My other concern is that there is no enamel damage that I would expect from bumping against that Hindenburg Cross for some time. I suspect that it may have been a "pieced together bar" but as you mentioned the price was a near steal as I paid less for the whole bar than I did for another Military Merit Order 5th class in my collection (green central medallion)

reverse

Front of the Bulgarian Order - also what is the name of this one???

Got this off of Ebay last week and I liked the war wreath on the Bulgarian Order - however when I got it today - the ribbons look old, the EK is what I would expect the War Cross is also what I would expect but the Bulgarian looks a bit too.... "fresh". There are no flaws to the enamel and it all looks in such good shape that perhaps it was made yesterday. I am sure that with any item there are reproductions - so what are your opinions???

The Hungarian award was for anyone who severed in a military capacity. The award without swirds was generally for individuals who served as nurses, doctors, fund raisers, etc... in the rear escelons or at home. There is a big gray area with who got the non combat or combat awards. I would guess that this bar was to a HQ officer who was near the front lines looking over maps and typing out orders for the men. But I suspect the Karl war cross...

My appologies gentlemen - this thread is now tainted with ignorance, stupidity and ego - most of which is my fault. I ask for your forgivness.

Seriously? I would say you are grasping at straws here....If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck - now if its Canadian or Mongolian I dont know for certain - however - It boggles my mind that you would consider during the time of the HUPR in the mid 70's that an individual with less than 10 years of service could receive FOUR Service to the Nation in Silver medals - and a gold one along with the merit medal and distinguished service medal??? In all my documentation and photographs and collection of ribbon bars I have NEVER seen this happen. But you must have so pony up on the photgraphic evidence..... In comparison - I would take Bertalan Farkas's ribbon bar and awards as LACKLUSTER for a career, but he was the one sent into space? I must have the ribbon bar to the 2nd Lt who designed the Air Defense Network from NATO attack - FOUR TIMES OVER... Really??? I must have the golden ribbon bar of all ribbon bars... I bet he was going to get the Hero of the Hungarian Peroples Republic for all the work he (or she) must have done.... but the paperwork fell thru???

This is a bit shaky, I think. It is possible, but I am not certain. Those also could be Service to the Nation in Silver. I think its pretty clear - considering the awards it would have been awarded to a senior NCO or officer - if these were four Service to the Nation in silver - where are the long service awards??

I don’t recognize it as being of military in origin - I think this is a university or trade school badge - obviously for agriculture and from the Royal Hungarian period.

Well - I'll let the out of the bag on this one - saw it on Ebay - it had just posted with a buy it now and after thirty seconds of deliberation I pulled the trigger... Its a winter weight tunic with the interior padding that is custom - not the standard factory style (this is a good sign...). The summer tunics were camp green and could shift to a shade of gray when exposed to the sun - but look at the interior. Secondly it has an interesting custom feature of elastic bands and a button for the upper pocket flaps. (just the right touch for those who want the uniform to look smart and who needs to stuff things in your pockets when you hold the rank of...) The dual set of loops for the shoulder boards are also a nice "custom" touch... Now when it arrives another thing to consider are the inspections stamps in it - it may or may not have them - will have to see when that one arrives. If it is stamped with "HR" or some other "H" prefix - it’s a slam dunk... In 1951 with the rapid expansion of the Hungarian military in anticipation of World War Three, combined with the recent purges of the officer corps in the late 1940's the Nephadsereg was pretty short of upper officers - namely generals. So with the massive expansion and the creation of new units - it was authorized that certain individuals with the rank of Colonel could take the position of a General. To distinguish these officers as different from other Colonels, they were authorized to wear the "pigeon gray" uniforms of the Generals. The Colonels did not wear the traditional sprig of oak leaf collar tabs on a red background - but instead still retained their service branch colored tabs with devices. Now for the other possibility - this could be a messed with tunic - the collar tabs added out of ignorance, or to swindle the unsuspecting.... but at the price I paid for it I would go with ignorance... this thing was a steal... anyhow there is the chance that this is just a penal system uniform with used an off gray tunic. Just have to wait and see...

After pulling out the box of ribbon bars... Well - we are both wrong and right.... here is a sample of what you can expect... Top: clearly its a painted on ribbon bar and the yellow bands on the Service to the Nation are clearly seen - thin tricolor and then on the last part three (gold, silver, bronze) awards of the Public Security Medal. The tricolor is broader on these - pretty clear cut - nice design... Middle: This gets interesting - more than "likely" its two Service to the Nation in silver awards - but here we have the thin tricolor but edged in white?? In fact the painter painted two lines of white with red in the center then two lines with green in the center and the outer portion of the white made the center - then the guy mounts his ribbon bar and puts them on backwards.... Bottom: This is the clincher - here we clearly see the Service to the Nation in Gold followed by the Service to the Nation in Silver - there are no yellow bands on the light blue paper style ribbon. Then we see on the last row the Flood Medal, followed by three of the Public Security Medals (gold, silver, bronze) the paper ribbon uses darker blue but the same thin tricolor as the Service to the Nation in Silver. The top and middle ribbon bars date from about the mid 1960's and have "quality" the lower one dates from the 1970's and 80's when they all went to the really bad looking paper ribbon bars. Hope that helps -

These are service to the nation in silver - the Public Service Medals has a wider tricolor.

It has everything to do with the color - now it could be mundane and someone messed with the collar tabs (but from the photos I like what I see) or it could be phenominal....

Yes its very very interesting - anyone got any idea as to why its so interesting..... :whistle:

interior

What do I have here? - besides a ratty old Hungarian M51 Uniform???

Yep - that was my recolection its a time period factor. Cimbineus probably has more exact information

From Memory, the oval style was from 1957 to 1970/75 ish time frame - then the Kivalo Hataror took on the Honved style with the white enameled border banner. Not much photographic evidence - but then trying to find photos of anyone wearing badges or medals was hard to come by...

It may be for the Border gurads - but I was led to believe that these were the badges worn by the AVH / Border Gurads who oversaw the collective farms, or who oversaw production in teh rural areas. I may be wrong... :unsure:

Generally my experience was that in an informal setting (IE talking to the grocer) she would have been known by her original first name. There were also many pet names or nicknames thrown into the mix. The "wife of" title was simply a very formal and traditional way of adressing her - this tradition held over from the middle ages - my clan is Robertson from - "Son of Robert"... anyhow - to adress her as "mam" or "miss" during the HUPR she would have been formally adressed as "elvtarsno" (Miss / Mrs Comrade) Just aside - wanna tripple your money on the blank document??? :cheeky:

I looked to get one of the Munkasor banners for a long time - I have (somewhere???) a nice photo of one hanging on the wall during an awards ceremony. Very nice stuff Greg :jumping:

I was pretty astonished as well - but the more Ilooked at it I could only come to the conclusion that it may be a theatre produced piece - possibly from Vienna - the British connection is certainly plausable as the seller stated he got it from a Brisith military family. However there are so many elements of KUK, Brisitsh and perhaps many other nations that it may have started out as Austrian but was butchered in the years gone by - the loops for all the awaards - the shoulde boards.... its just a mess.

but these didnt make much sense....

Collar.... there is only one rank in the KUK like that.... :whistle: