Claudio

Hi there! No, it doesn't... and I don't like it... first of all I'm not so sure that the first device (Wiederholungsspange 1939 2 Kl) is original (it looks so "flashy" and new compared the other ones), secondly there are too many different types (3 types out of 4) of swords devices and thirdly the order doesn't make sense (that KVK2 1939 with X, it should go immediately after the Iron cross ribbon). I wouldn't be sad to have missed that one... ciao, C

Yes, I know but I remember once that it was already offered a Red Cross medal with a battle clasp by an auctioneer in Germany some time ago RKM with Ostasien 1900-01 battle clasp Wikipedia RKM Für die Teilnahme an Militärexpeditionen konnte die II. und III. Klasse auch mit einer der folgenden Spangen auf dem Band verliehen werden: Südafrika 1899/1900 Ostasien 1900/01 Charbin 1904/05 Südwestafrika 1904/06 Peking Die Spangen sind aus vergoldetem Bronze oder Messing gefertigt.

Hi Brian! That's what I also I thought; but thank you very much again for your most interesting additional informations on these rare Freikorps awards. Ciao, Claudio

Hi bolewts58! Wow... you make some very very interesting points; thanks for taking your time to explain these Freikorps awards, which are to the most of the collecting community quite unknown or underrated. I was saying that it was a Deutschritter cross of Randow's detachment award, because it was so described by the auction house. Furthermore I didn't know that the 2nd class of the Deutschritter order was intended only for NCOs; you never stop learning! If so, even better, because I know that the Awaloff-Kreuz (German spelling correct?) is quite a rare order, like the other Freikorps awards or commemorative medals. Most of them, because of them are being also quite heavily faked. But you are right; to find such Freikorps medals or orders on a bar is quite rare or rather impossible. I did only see another one years ago being sold on Ebay for a lot of money. I wish I had saved pictures of it on my computer! But I do remember it wasn't a Godet's bar. I thought he could have been a pilot active on the Eastern front, but I also thought he could have been an junior officer that first was an Infantry-Officer and later went into the LW-service (like Kesselring to name a notorious career switch from army to air force). But of course it could be highly probable that the wearer of my bar was already in the air force maybe also a pilot during the end of WWI. I think that the wearer of my bar had to be very young, since he didn't have any other German WWI orders or bravery awards on his bar. In fact he could have joined the German air force very late in WWI maybe when he was only 20-21, so it would explain why he didn't have any other German awards like a Hohenzollern order, Saxon AO, BLZ, BMVO, WFO or others orders given usually quite profusely to junior pilot officers. Moreover he did have only 12 years long service medals on his bars, that means that he re-joined late in the 30ies the armed forces or maybe he was too young to get higher long service awards. Since there weren't so many pilots, maybe this bar could be identifiable but it would take a lot of time and research. Here attached I also put a picture of Detlev Niemann (2) German awards book about the Awaloff Order: oddly or interestingly enough Niemann doesn't mention any 4th class and all the pictured crosses on his book have a skull on the top cross arm at 12 hours. But I know that there were Awaloff Orders without skull (German version?). Thanks again to make this thread so interesting and to give so valuable and educated inputs into it. Cheers, Claudio Also interesting: Freiwillige russische Westarmee ciao, C

From Wikipedia Alfred Georg Friedrich Kuno Karl von Randow This was the comanding officer of the "Detachement von Randow" who fought the reds in 1919 (Freikorps) like the wearer of my medal bar. Very likely they knew eachother personally! Interesting to notice that von Randow's medal bar is not too far off of the one purchased by me. In fact he wears almost the same combination of medals with some minor differences: his Deutschritterkreuz "Detachement von Randow" has the swords and he does also wear the Baltenkreuz 1st and 2nd class. Furthermore is also quite interesting to point out that von Randow he's wearing some "Weimarer Republic" stuff that has been banned after 1934 to be worn on medal bars at official events/occasions (parades, gala evening etc.). Naughty! Naughty! Detachement von Randow I'm wondering if the wearer of my bar could be identified with the officers in this detachement (must have been an officer because of the Saint Stanislaw's order on his bar): Das Freiwilligen Detachement von Randow war eine Freikorps-Einheit im Baltikum nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg. Es wurde von Hauptmann Alfred von Randow am 5. Januar 1919 in Schaulen aufgestellt, nachdem sein Ersuchen auf Bildung eines Freikorps zum Schutz der Bahnlinie nach Schaulen vom Armeeoberkommando (AOK) am 2. Januar 1919 genehmigt worden war. Konkret ging es um die Sicherung der Bahnlinie Lidowiany-Tauroggen. Aus Formationen der ehemaligen 8. Armee, Freiwilligen, Versprengten der Eisernen Brigade (Leutnant Winterhalter mit rund 80 Mann), der Freiwilligenkompanie 5. Ersatz-Division, Freiwilligen aus Torgau unter Leutnant Prickler, einer Maschinengewehr(MG)-Kompanie in Tilsit unter Feldwebel-Leutnant Schulz wurde das Detachement gebildet. Am 11. Januar 1919 bestand etwa folgende Gliederung: Stab des Detachement: Kommandeur: Hauptmann Alfred von Randow, Tilsit Adjutant: Leutnant G. Negendank Verpflegungsoffizier Leutnant Bauch Infanteriekompanien: Führer Leutnant Durlach, rund 100 Mann, 4 schwere MG Führer Leutnant Winterhalter, rund 100 Mann, 6 schwere MG Führer Leutnant Schönfeld, rund 40 Mann Das Bahnschutz-Bataillon unterstand taktisch seit dem 5. Januar 1919 unmittelbar dem LII. Armeekorps, Insterburg, seit dem 19. Januar der 1. Infanterie-Brigade, Oberst Sydow. Von diesem Zeitpunkt an führte die Truppe die Bezeichnung Freikorps von Randow. Seit Ende Januar 1919 war das Detachement von Randow bestrebt, durch anhaltende kleinere Vorstöße den Gegner zu beunruhigen und ihn über die eigene Stärke im unklaren zu lassen. Fast täglich kam es zu Schießereien und Gefechten. Am 3. Februar 1919 stieß ein Jagdkommando der Abteilung von Randow bis zum Eisenbahnknotenpunkt Radviliškis vor und zerstörte dort Lokomotiven und Gleisanlagen. Am 10. Februar traten als Verstärkung zwei württembergische Kompanien mit fünf Offizieren und 300 Mann des XIII. Armeekorps als 7. und 8. Kompanie (Gruppe Schwaben) zum Detachement. Das Freikorps vergrößerte sich jetzt schnell und erreichte bis Ende Februar 1919 eine Stärke von 2.635 Mann und vergrößerte sich bis zu seinem Ende auf fast 5.000 Mann. Vom 14. März an trat das Detachement von Randow beiderseits Dubysa zum Angriff in Richtung Schaulen an und erstürmte eine Reihe von Ortschaften. Die litauische Regierung hatte von Randow hierzu mehrere Infanteriekompanien und eine starke Kavallerieabteilung unterstellt. Nachdem es am 27. Februar zu einem Gefecht der Nordgruppe des Detachements von Randow bei Szakiany gekommen war, das von den Bolschewiki geräumt wurde, versammelte das Generalkommando LII die Abteilung von Randow am 10. März im Raum von Cytowiany zum Vormarsch, in dessen Verlauf die Abteilungen Meyer und von Randow am 12. März Radviliškis und Schaulen besetzten. Im weiteren allgemeinen Vorgehen erzielte das Detachement am 22. bei Kapzuny einen beachtlichen Erfolg und unterstützte litauische Truppen. Am 3./4. April gelang es überlegenen russisch-bolschewistischen Kräften, das von litauischen Truppen und kleineren Teilen des Detachements besetzte Poniewicz zu nehmen; diese folgen aber nur mit schwächeren Kräften, so dass das Detachement die sogenannte Szoja-Linie gegen alle Angriffe halten konnte. Am 17. Mai übernahm Hauptmann Meyer die Führung des Detachements für den beurlaubten Major von Randow, der nicht mehr zu seiner Truppe zurückkehren sollte. Cheers, C

Hi Claudius! I'm afraid that on the basis of the medals on the bar, this is a practically an impossibile one to be identified, but I'm quite confident that somewhere lying around are still its documents to be found, maybe still with the family or collector that had this bar. It's like Falke's medal bar : it took me several years, but finally I could find the medal bar that went with documents (the other way around)! Let's be positive and hope... I'll be watching the next auctions if something interesting may surface... you never know! ciao, C

thanks for the kind comments! Wow! That's pristine, stone-mint backing!!! Maybe the holes can be explained that very likely the battle clasp was moved from the Red Cross medal to the right medal (China Medal)... could be? Who knows. Only a time period picture of the wearer with his bar could explain it. Cheers, Claudio

My latest entry... one of my longest bars (17 orders and medals). This officer was a Freikorpskämpfer on the Eastern front right after WWI. Some rare medals on the bar: Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl. am Kämpferband, 1914 (OEK 1909), E gs/S; 3. Reich (1933-45), KVK 1939 2. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 3835), BM br; KuK Österreich-Ungarn bis 1918, Ehrenzeichen des Roten Kreuz 2. Kl. mit KD, 1914-1923, S emailliert; 3. Reich (1933-45), Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (OEK 3803/1); 1. Republik Österreich, 1. WK-Kriegsteilnehmermedaille Österreich; Weimarer Republik, Schlesisches Bewährungsabzeichen 2. Klasse (OEK 3303), E em; Bayern Königreich, Medaille Weihnachten 1912 (OEK ); 3. Reich (1933-45), DA der LW Medaille für 12 Jahre (OEK 3859); 3. Reich (1933-45), DA der LW Medaille für 4 Jahre (OEK 3860); 3. Reich (1933-45), Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 (OEK 3517); Weimarer Republik, Medaille des Soldaten-Siedlungsverband Kurland 1919 (OEK 3396/N2 2.01.34), Br; Weimarer Republik, Erinnerungsmedaille der Eisernen Division 1920 (OEK 3347/N2 2.01.22); Russland Zarenreich, St. Stanislaus-Orden 3. Klasse mit Schwertern, Br vg; Weimarer Republik, Detachement von Randow Deutschritter Kreuz 2. Kl., punziert aif RS "935" (OEK 3388/N2 2.01.50d), Emaille oberflächlich beschädigt , S vg Em; Russland Zarenreich, St. Georgs-Erinnerungsmedaille 1919 der deutsch-russischen Westarmee (N2 2.01.55f); Ungarn 1918-1944, 1.WK-Kriegsteilnehmermedaille; Bulgarien Zarenreich bis 1944, 1.WK-Kriegsteilnehmermedaille. Cheers, C

Hi Jason! I found the same picture of him, only not so in good graphic definition, plus a picture of his grave in Germany... Grave Otto Prinz, died of old age Cheers, Claudio

Thanks Dave, for your very precious inputs... in that case there's a very strong possibility that the bar really is of Arthur Graf von Normann-Ehrenfels! That's great! ... even that elusive Schaumburg-Lippe cross für Treue Dienste, which is quite a very sparsely awarded cross also because of the small size of the principality: Fürst Adolph erneuerte am 18. November 1914 das von Fürst Adolph Georg im Jahre 1870 gestiftete Kreuz „zur Anerkennung der Verdienste, welche sich“ seine „Mitkämpfer im Kriege erwerben“. Bestimmt war es vor allem für Offiziere und Mannschaften des vom Fürsten geführten Husaren-Regiments Nr. 14, des Jäger-Bataillons Nr. 7 und des Husaren-Regimentes Nr. 7, außerdem für in anderen Einheiten stehende Landeskinder. An Nichtkämpfer konnte es am „weißen“ Bande verliehen werden, fürstliche Personen scheinen es zudem als Steckkreuz erhalten zu haben. Am Band für Kämpfer erfolgten 10.116, am Band für Nichtkämpfer 281 Verleihungen. An fürstliche Personen wurden 36 Steckkreuze ausgegeben. Literatur: Volle, Henning. Stiftungen und Erneuerungen von deutschen Orden und Ehrenzeichen im Ersten Weltkrieg. Schriftenreihe der Deutschen Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde e. V. (DGO), Konstanz am Bodensee 2014. Vgl. S. 56. ciao, C

Thanks for your replies! Actually I was asking because there's a medal and ribbon bar on sale that came with that name, but there are no documents that go with this set. Strangely there is a Prussian LS award 25 for officers with that Wurttembergian LS ribbon and not the blue one... very odd, combination, if I must say. Disturbing also, at least for me, that the medals there aren't horizontally on the same position (height). I'd love to see the back, but there're no pictures of it on the seller's website. C

Dear forumites, I am looking for information about the above mentioned presumably wurttembergian officer who served before and during WWI and survived the great war until the 30-ies maybe later. Any info about his date of birth/death and awarded orders or medals are very appreciated. He got a Württembergian Friedrichsorden 1th class with swords and a LS Prussian cross for 25 years. Maybe is this the guy : Graf ARTHUR Karl Konstantin August Edwin Lebrecht von Normann-Ehrenfels Thank you very much in advance for your inputs and comments. Best regards, C

That's correct... such devices of high classes orders they were worn by regnant nobility, like this gentleman: Georg Prinz von Sachsen-Meiningen . In this case I would tip on a family member of the Catholic Southern Branch of the House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, who knows? It would be great to find a picture of that very ribbon bar being worn. C

it's almost surely the Brunswick's war merit cross 2nd class https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsverdienstkreuz_(Braunschweig) Cheers, C

I don't anything particular that disturbs me... the pin set up and the color of the covering fabric on the back of the bar indicates that this could well be a Godet made one. The only thing that put me estetically a bit off, is the different type of swords devices (smaller) put on the Austrian WWI commemorative, but this is acceptable because also on the full sized ribbon of this medal the swords were slightly different, Austrian type. Moreover is totally ok that the Hungarian and Bulgarian WWI ribbons, although allied of Germany in WWII, are in the end of the bar as they should. The Austrian ribbon is correctly placed after the FEK (Hindenburg) as after 1938 (Anschluss) Austrian decorations were considered "German"... with some exception. Ciao, C

That is correct... the thread was mine. I'd love to have also his father's bar! GFM and PLM Träger mi Eichelaub!!!! Cheers, C

Here's the description of the medals on the last Bavarian Medical bar: Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl. 1914 am Nichtkämpferband (OEK 1909); E gs/S; Bayern König Ludwig-Kreuz 1916 (OEK 458), Br gs; Preußen, Rote Kreuz Medaille 2.Klasse 1898-1921 (OEK 1871), S; Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer (OEK 3803/2), E br; Bayern, Verdienstkreuz für freiwillige Krankenpfleger in Silber (OEK 502), S; Preußen, Rote Kreuz Medaille 3.Klasse 1917-1921 (OEK 1872/2), KM vg; Freistaat Bayern 1922-1934, DA BRK für 20-jährige ersprießliche Dienstleistung ab 1922 (ohne OEK-Nr.), Br; Deutsches Reich 1871-1918, Südwest-Afrika Denkmünze für Nichtkämpfer 1907 (OEK 3166), St; Deutsches Reich 1933-1945, Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes 1937-1939, Kreuz 2. Klasse (OEK 3555), Br vg. cheers, C

Hi! The fact that the FAM “am Friedensband” is, was already clear to me (see also here as example). The war ribbon was yellow with two narrow light blue stripes on the sides. I already also mentioned that Sedlatzek put the clasp on the wrong medal. Furthermore is better to have a bar with provenience of a medals and orders vendor as nothing at all. cheers, C

Furthermore there’s a book about him (Kaltenegger’s, a quite renowned and acclaimed writer of books on the subject of the German mountain troops) where it is explained and confirms that von Schlebrügge got his Silesian Eagles and Baltic cross. Also in the 2nd part of the book “Die Ritterkreuzträger der Gebirgsjäger L-Z” there’s the confirmation of his orders, also a quite elusive description of House Order of Saxon State. Von Schlebrügge was in the 12th Thuringian Ussar (Husar) Regiment, therefore I can assume that, since he got the EKs first and second class, he would have very likely almost automatically been awarded with the White Falcon Order as a cavalry officer. I suspect that this was a very late 1918 bestowal and therefore it could explain the absence of it in the rolls of the Grandduchy (Grossherzogtum) of Saxony-Weimar’s White Falcon Order. That’s of course my fairly educated and safe assumption. BR C

Dear foumites! These are the orders and medals of Oberst von Schlebrügge; as you can see there’s a White Falcon RK 2 Kl with swords. Also he was decorated with both classes of the Silesian Eagle and the Baltic cross (see narrow white ribbon with blue stripes after the Silesian Eagle).

Back of the bar... also notice the Godet produced Kriegsteilnehmer Ehrenkreuz (Hindenburg cross without swords for non combatants). also notice on the front the clasps “Weltkrieg 1914-18” was put on the wrong ribbon/medal... it should be on the Saxon FAM. C

Dear forumites, I'd like to introduce to you this very rare bar of a, very likely, administrative or functionary like officer of the Wehrmacht with 40 years of service. I'm afraid that this combination is not sufficient for an attribution to the original wearer, despite the quite unique combination of the decorations on the bar. In fact only 13'000 EK2 1914 with the noncombatant ribbon were awarded and there weren't some many WH officers or NCO that could wear the oak leaves to the 40 years of long service in the army, because of the interlude of the Weimar Republic and its very shrunken effective number of soldiers serving in the Versaille's treaty restricted German Army of the 20ies and early 30ies. Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl. 1914 am Bande für Nichtkämpfer, nur ca. 13‘000 Verleihungen (OEK 1909), E gs/S; Preußen, Verdienstkreuz Kriegshilfsdienst 1916 (OEK 1966), KM Feinzink; Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer (OEK 3803/2), Hersteller G.S. (Godet & Sohn, Berlin), E br; Sachsen, Friedrich August Medaille in Silber 1905 mit Bandsspange „Weltkrieg 1914-18“ (OEK 2284), S; Sachsen-Weimar, Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen für Angehörige anderer Staaten 1902-1918 in Silber (OEK 2385), S; Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH DA 1. Kl. mit goldenem Eichenlaub für 40 Dienstjahre (OEK 3851), Tombak vs; Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH DA 3. Kl. für 12 Dienstjahre (OEK 3854), E vs; This nice specimen of medal bar comes with the original case of the renown medals & orders dealer Sedlatzek, Berlin. The backing is without label and it's of a Wehrmachts kind of olive green color. Enjoy! Any comment or inputs are mostly appreciated and encouraged. Thanks in advance for your attention. BR C

Looks like a KVK2 1939 without swords.... My latest addition.... mint!

Hi Claudius! Thanks for the nice words. I think that the Police long service medals and the luftschutz were given by the ten if not hundred thousands... therefore no possibility of identifying this one I’m afraid. Maybe one day a picture of the wearer could surface, who knows? ciao C

Thanks Christophe... the search continues nevertheless...